User talk:Happypal/Archive July 2011

Table
Ok, I really hate that table style. The double borders are awful. -- Wynthyst  talk  14:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too! I forgot to put a "border-collapse:collapse" in there...
 * I was a bit hasty in my request, I'm tweaking it locally right now, and I'll show you the finished product. Happypal 14:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The tables here pretty much do not have internal borders, I think it's a much cleaner look. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  14:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too. I'm writting something better right now. Happypal 14:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Tables 2
Ok, here are two tables. If you find them good, the css should work correctly this time. Sorry for asking the first time without even checking, how arrogant of me! Happypal 14:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The first (left) is truer to the current desing.
 * The second (right) has slightly rounded internal edges. I find it more attractive to the eye.


 * Need a little more padding between headers and outer border.... I prefer the first one btw. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  15:08, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Table 3
Like this? I added some padding between the outer box and the internal cells. It is should result in an exact css replica of the infobox. The only differences are the margins, since the infobox floats on the right, and a table is not a float, and on the left. table.terraria { margin: 1em 1em 1em 0; background: #f9f9f9; border: 1px #aaaaaa solid; padding: 0.2em; -moz-border-radius: .7em; -webkit-border-radius: .7em; } .terraria th, .terraria td { padding: 0.2em; } .terraria th { background: #E4F0F7; color: #063B5E; text-align: center; } .terraria td { } .terraria caption { font-weight: bold; }

Damn You
Actually that's exactly what I was trying to do with it. Thank you, I'll be cannibalizing your code later to make a new one =D -Shadowclaimer 14:55, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Just, you'll notice I put 2 rows for the torch: The first one uses a rowspan="2" mech, whereas the second simply uses a br. I think the br approach is better, because the code is easier. Once put in production, editors will tear your table appart, so simpler is better. Happypal 15:05, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still very new to making tables so I'm taking the cannibalization method for making them where I look at code on other tables and appropriate it elsewhere. I've used a couple guides (IE: Wikipedia's table guide) but its still a tad complicated (I'm used to other wikis where making tables is done with a tool lol). I intend to eventually hope my table comes out well enough to be approved to takeover the Recipe page with, as I feel the icons add some much needed flail, but thats still up for debate lol -Shadowclaimer 15:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * br's suck.. and I will be removing them anywhere I find them :P -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  16:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Never! Why do they suck particularly though? (Out of curiosity) -Shadowclaimer 16:12, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Stop
Do not make further changes to the template until it's decided what to do with it. Ever single change you make causes the server to parse out to every page it's used on. DISCUSS changes ALWAYS. I don't know how to stress this enough. If I have to I will lock down every single template on this wiki until you guys get this simple simple concept into your heads. -- Wynthyst  talk  09:33, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I do go on your page to discuss, since you are pretty much the only person here who has an opinion on anything. My changes are revertible. Forgive me for being bold, but that is also how wikis work. Happypal 10:09, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm not complaining about your changes.. I'm complaining about the FREQUENCY of them.. use your shandbox/test page to finalize your design before implementing them on the actual template. You are causing the server to parse out each and every tiny change you make to every single page the template is used on. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  09:46, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll try to limit my edits on template pages to the minimum then. But I do test (most of) my changes. Happypal 10:15, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Man. You know, some of us (like myself) haven't seriously contributed to a wiki before, and don't know all the consequences of certain changes and are just here trying to contribute. It's disheartening that you have to address people the way you do. I get that you're frustrated that people are traipsing around breaking what are probably pretty well established protocols or whatever but there are nicer ways of saying it. You can link people to pages on wiki etiquette. You can revert changes and say "please start a discussion for this". I really don't feel like contributing with someone like you around jumping down everyone's throats. Maybe you are just having a bad day - most of the comments you leave on your talk page are much nicer - but still. Vissith 10:54, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In his defense, I am a serious contributor (IMO). I've read (and know) proper etiquette. Furthermore, when touching a templates like crafting, you are taking the responsibility to do things correctly. So if I do it wrong, I am entitled to reprimand. While I don't appreciate the tone of the comment, the arguments are valid. Wynthyst is the sole admin on this wiki, and is probably under a massive workload to prevent the wiki from crumbling in pieces. While I do believe my edits make the wiki better, he has to supervise each and every one of them - My bad edits are his overtime. Unfortunately, a wiki is not a democracy, and the best admins are usually the most repressive - those that keep order. Happypal 11:49, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You're doing a good job, don't worry about that. Ju ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 16:49, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree completely with everything you said, Happypal, it's just the delivery that's been irking me. I'm sure the workload is pretty crazy. However, it's also his responsibility to stop commenting when he's so cranky he's going to turn people off from contributing. And yeah, the admins should absolutely enforce some sort of order, but I think most people that are going to contribute in the first place realize that and as such have no need to be talked down to. I'll adjust/revert/discuss whatever, and if I'm not currently doing something I should be, all it takes is a polite note. Vissith 17:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I do apologize if my tone has seemed over harsh. Believe me, I appreciate all of the contributions you are all making, and seriously, at this time, I'm also evaluating members of the community for potential promotion to admin status. I do however have the responsibility of keeping things running, and constant changes to widely used templates is counter to that as it adds to server load. While this wiki is still small enough that hopefully the servers can take it, I'm trying to stop bad habits from forming early. I also want this to be a "community" wiki, where discussion reigns supreme. I'm not an evil dictator, though it may seem that way sometimes. :D -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]]  talk  18:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Wynthyst. And I totally get where you are coming from and agree with at least the content of everything you've been saying. I can't speak to Happypal's experience level, but I'm pretty novice - and in real life I'm a game programmer, so it's my instinct to go start learning and modifying templates and stuff. I may have inadvertently started making a lot of mistakes in the near future. I've also learned around the periphery that Wikis usually have a "be bold" philosophy where you dive in and start editing. I respect that for templates in particular more testing and discussion needs to happen first (which is probably why you were annoyed when I was editing the ore navboxes and item link), how can future users prevent getting into a situation where they are causing a problem? Perhaps a section about what changes should be discussed first - like template editing - could be added to the wiki rules page? Vissith 18:21, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:Delete
Please don't blank and replace the content with Template:Delete for any reason, even though your purpose was good in Prema Kavali full lenght movie in divx format spam. I'd rather instead remove the links from view, which I did. If you do so, it will make it difficult to administrate as you need to check through the history first. Ju ze  11:52, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the page was full of spam, and even as a non-admin, am in full right to remove any non-terraria related material from it. Once blanked, and given the title, the admins will require very little time to delete it, especially since the author was flagged as a vandal. Happypal 11:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I can disagree with you. Sure, your intention was good to prevent people from clicking the links. I still never blank any pages that are obvious spam or need to be deleted, it would be rather annoying if for example someone writes "it's an item." on some article and you or someone else would blank and replace it with a delete. You'd still need to check the history, and it's extra effort. In this case, it didn't really matter because of the title but it's still less strain for sysops if you don't blank the page. Just trying to guide you, take this as a positive feedback. :) Ju ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 12:04, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Your argument is valid, it does give that little extra work to admins. I'm not afraid of people clicking the links, that's their problem. I'm bothered by the fact that the page has vandalism at all, and that it stays on the wiki for hours. It allows the vandals to thrive on the fact that their deed has gone un-corrected for so long, and makes the wiki look bad for outside visitors. If we had admins available 24/7 to take care of this, I'd take your approach. Happypal 12:15, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, any effort to prevent vandalism, whetever it be flagging with delete, is good and enough. Not too many people actually look at Special:RecentChanges or search for some obvious spam article. Anyway, as Wynth has said, there will be new sysops shortly (in few weeks?) to handle these issues. PS: The history shows up vandalism anyway. Ju ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 12:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I reverted your blanking one more time. I won't do it again to prevent an edit-war and as of "1 revert rule". Ju ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 12:33, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Why?
Why did you move the Floating Islands page without any discussion? -- Wynthyst  talk  17:30, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I did it without discussion, because a) it is a trivial edit (easily un-doable: move over redirect), b) It didn't really even seem to me like there was even anything to discuss (pages about something are singular).
 * I did put Blocks under discussion. IMO, it should either be made into a full page with content, and moved to Block, or kept as a simple list, in which case it should be moved to List of Blocks. Happypal 18:03, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is not a trivial edit when the page is linked to the main page, and has been written entirely in the plural. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  18:11, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Can nothing change without a discussion? I did not see a discussion as to why it was in "floating islands" in the first place, when the every other page (including the Biomes) are singular. The move was correct, and did not warrant a pre-emptive discussion. Now by all means, if you disagree with my edit, then revert away, but tell me why you disagree, so we can discuss. Don't ask me to discuss for the sake of discussion, when nobody else has shown any desire to do so. YOU are the one undoing my edits without discussing. The worst part, is I don't even know if you actually disagree with the move: When you asked me to discuss the merge of Phaseblade, you didn't even participate, and it turned out that nobody was against it anyways.
 * About the triviality of the edit: I can make the edit to the page so it reads singular. Would you help me by making the front page edit? Happypal 22:18, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No, I am against moving it, not everything on this wiki is in singular, and it doesn't need to be moved. I want EVERYTHING at least opened for discussion before it's just done, whether I'm going to participate in that discussion or not. I want you and every member of this community to stop just "doing" things without consideration of the impact or the reasoning behind why it's the way it is. While your knowledge of wiki code seems very good, it's the total lack of wiki etiquette that I'm having problems with. Too many people seemingly don't have the patience to wait even a day or 2 to make a change just to ask if there are any issues/concerns with the changes they want to make. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  23:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Speaking of proper wiki etiquette, you seem to have no problem hunting down all my move contributions, and reverting my edits, with no explanation other than "It doesn't need to be moved". I may be bold with my edits, but I do have etiquette. I am open to discussion for anything, with everyone, provided somebody wants to discuss. I always ask for input when I'm unsure. I've gone by you for all my major changes. I realize you prefer the talk before change approach, and my wiki experience has taught me change-talk-revert one, but our difference of view doesn't mean I don't have proper etiquette. It just means I don't do things your way.
 * I'll open a discussion in Biomes (Biome!), and I sincerely hope you will participate. Happypal 06:34, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Truce
I'm sorry if I have seem heavy handed in some areas, and I'm sorry if you feel I've specifically "targeted" you and your edits. There is a method to my madness, though it may not be readily apparent, and quite honestly, the reason I am paying more attention to your edits than others is you seem to have a solid grasp on wikicode, and as exasperating as I have made life for you, you have responded with calm and reason, and continued to work toward the betterment of the wiki which, imo would make you perfect as a community admin, something I've been particularly watching for among the active editors. Interested? I still want to see discussion before changes (particularly changes to the main page which as an admin you'd have the ability to do). -- Wynthyst  talk  10:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, I'd be interested. I'd be able to take some load off of you for admin maintenance. Personally, I think the front page is great, and wouldn't touch it, apart from maintenance (game version, direct link to pages etc...). I'll keep giving a heads up to all of my edits, before I make them. I'll keep template edits to a minimum, but things change, so edits will be made. So yeah, I wouldn't use it as a golden ticket to run loose >:D
 * One admin question that has been itching me is: terraria is not a huge wiki, it should not crumble under a few template edits that cause the cache to refresh, even if it is all the pages on the wiki. In particular, (I believe) that MediaWiki has a mechanism that can reduce the Job per PageView ratio. I don't know if you have access to it, but the variable is wgJobRunRate. By lowering it, we can give higher priority to pages, then to running jobs. This means that template edits take longer to propagate, but at least they servers don't choke. Happypal 10:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. Please add Terraria Wiki:Admin noticeboard to your watchlist, and please enable email in your preferences. :D -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  18:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I'll be 100% offline this WE, but I'll get to all of that ASAP when I come back. Happypal 18:57, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

ugh
I'm really starting to regret your promotion. Stop making everything singular. Anything that links from the main page needs to remain an actual page, not a redirect. If the page is about multiple items, it needs to be plural. -- Wynthyst  talk  06:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Example? I moved "gem", so the mainpage links to "gem", but appears as Gem for integration with the front page display and english. I'm moving them to singular pages because it is both a standard and consistent (and discussed and approved). Even if you often talk about something in the plural, you put the page in the singular spot, on the of beat chance that you sometimes say "I dropped a coin".
 * Besides, what you say is "multiple items", other will say it is about "a class of item". A gem is an object. A coin is an object. 06:52, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So you have one page describing the class, and a separate page for each item. That's how it was initially set up, and that's the way it SHOULD have stayed, but you are in such a hurry you don't bother to listen. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  06:56, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "ugh. I'm really starting to regret your promotion." It strikes me as extremely petty to promote someone and then publicly make a statement like this shortly thereafter. // Vissith  talk  23:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I listen. I'm going to take this to a devoted page for discussion. I'm starting to get the feeling were having the same argument spread out over several pages. 07:01, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's pretty much done. I'm finished fighting. It's getting me no where I've said the same thing to you over and over and over, and you just ignore me and do what you want anyway. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  07:03, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't be that way, I don't ignore you (If I did, I probably would have been banned long ago). I put the merge notice for almost an entire week. I'm trying to do it your way, but I guess it is still too fast. I'll slow down even more. But please participate in the discussion. You say you want the community to decide and participate, but you need to realize you are pretty much 50% of the community. 07:16, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Drop Rates
Am I allowed to add drop rate informations, extracted from the terraria source? Rynti 16:12, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, please do. I'll just ask that you start slow, and only do a few pages. Show the community what you want to do. 16:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been working a bit on drop rates and have a couple questions. When I started 1 monster had a "Drop rates" section and 2 had "Special Drops", so I went ahead and used "Special Drops", but I like the sound of "Drop Rates" better. What is the proper placement? I think it should be at the top, after the initial text block but before videos and strategy. I noticed a handful of items listed drop rates on their pages. Should I deleted those and have it only on the monster's page? I think that would make it easier to update. Any opinions on the formatting? Originally I wanted to do a little table for it, but they like to use "if ... else if ..." a lot (like Demon Eye drops) and I thought that would get messy. I like having both the percent and the ratio in there (credit to whoever originally did Demon Eye). --KoreRekon 11:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi.
 * I think it would be better to keep them on the monster page, as that is what the info should be found: It is a page about the monster. Pages about items should link to monsters that drop them, and players who want to know the drop rate should then go to the monster page
 * I think a table would indeed be too bulky, but I don't think it warrants entire sentences either. A simple bullet list is what would be best, IMO.
 * I think just simple "Drops" is the best title, as the drops may or may not be special. Further more, the section isn't entirely dedicated to the rates themselves.
 * Finally, I'm not a huge fan of the "else", as it is something strictly related to code. From an observer point of view, there is no "else": I think it would be better to just put the compounded "else rate".
 * So to summarize, I (IMO) think this would be best:
 * == Drops ==
 * Lens: 33.4% (1:3 chance)
 * Black Lens: 0.67% (1:150 chance)
 * happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 12:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I love that layout, simple and to the point. What about for multiple drops?  Something like:
 * 1-5 Spiky Balls: 50% (1:2 chance)
 * This part is going to sound horrible, but it's been a long time since I've used anything besides basic math. If there's one drop with 1:400 else another drop with 1:200, what is the formula to calculate the adjusted 1:200 drop rate?  It's sad how quickly I forget things I don't use. --KoreRekon 12:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that looks good.
 * If the first item is a/A, and the second item only drops when the first doesn't, at a rate of b/B, then overall, the second item will fall at (1 - a/A)*(b/B).
 * For the Demon Eye Example, that would be:
 * (1 - 1/3)*(1/100) = (2/3)*(1/100) = 2/300 = 1/150.
 * In your example, the exact value would be 399/80000, but I think it would be fine to put (&#8776;1/200). happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 12:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ordering of the drops, based on drop % (high to low?) or alphabetical? --KoreRekon 12:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say common to uncommon (so high% to low%) happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 12:29, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Wiki Neutrality
Could you please try to keep articles neutral, thanks. --Cloakedboltz 17:51, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't be everywhere at once. Thanks for your edit on Obsidian Skull, that has been irking me for awhile. 17:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Signature
You're using a template in signature, isn't that against the rules? I thought sysops should show a good example for the community. Don't get me wrong, take this as a positive feedback. :) Ju ze  08:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I've heard both versions. The main argument for keeping the sig in a template is that it reduces text bloat (your signature is 203 characters long...) The main argument against a template sig is that changing the sig refreshes a lot of pages, and strains the servers. Thus, as long as I don't edit my sig, I believe I am respecting the rules. But I guess it is open for interpretation. I'll put my sig on perma-protect to show my intent, and will do the same for other users using the same scheme. 08:29, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's very true that templates strain the servers as everytime a page with a template is accessed, the server needs to load it from the cache and look for it. This can be prevented with infront of the template, which will paste the template once to the page but won't keep it updated. Imo, not a very good idea at all to keep templates in sigs, it causes more strain for the server. Ju ze  User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 08:32, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite "everytime a page with a template is accessed". 08:35, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * [Inserted after edit conflict v ] I've seen it done and authorized on many wikis. Still, to avoid making it look like I'm abusing my admin powers, and to avoid promoting irresponsible usage from others, I'll be changing mu signature back to hard text. I hope it will avoid any future drama. happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 08:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It still needs to load the template from cache, instead of reading from the page source. More strain, if you want to, I can ask User:Wynthyst. Ju ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 08:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Call me petty (I am), but images also put a strain on servers. Take this as a positive feedback. happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 09:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Hadn't noticed they were literally banned according to our rules. Your interrogative "isn't that against the rules?" (as opposed to a simpler "They're banned BTW") made me assume you were talking about vague general wiki rules. happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 09:24, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The ban on templates in signatures is a feature that will be found on all new Curse wikis. In the case of admins most especially, as they are vandal magnets. To clarify, if your signature is changed, whether intentionally by you or by vandalism, the server will automatically parse the changes to every instance where your signature appears, whether that page is accessed or not. This does increase server load, and affects the performance of the wiki in general. Since this is the first Curse wiki where these rules have been implemented, I'm not surprised happypal wasn't aware of it. I'm sure that with a signature as small as happy's is, there is no real issue with changing it to hard coded text in his preferences. Juze, you need to be a little less confrontational please... you are a valued editor here, let's keep it that way :D -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  10:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha, sure, thanks for the clarification though! :) <font color="Blue">Ju <font color="Blue">ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 13:36, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Cobalt

 * Making way for move: Jungle Armor IS Cobalt armor, moving here, re-creating Cobal as soft redirect

That was a bit premature I think. Blue said that "the Cobalt armor will be making its return later on in a different way". Essentially, Jungle IS NOT Cobalt, it merely replaced it for now and Cobalt will be back later. For this reason especially, I also think it's a bad idea to turn cobalt armor into a redirect; rather than a page telling what Cobalt Armor really is, why it's not in the game anymore, and how it will be back eventually. Someone doing a wiki search for Cobalt Armor could get the wrong impression if all he gets is an article on Jungle Armor...
 * I wasn't completely finished but...
 * Cobalt Armor effectively became Jungle Armor, so it is makes more sense to move the page to jungle armor, rather than copy pasting it (it page keeps history).
 * I did not create a redirect, but left a soft redirect, telling players that Cobalt was replaced by Jungle.
 * If and when Cobalt armor is returned to the game, it will be returned as a new item, and a new page will be created for that item. happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 09:30, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a late bird, but I somewhat agreed on it. The current state "in developement" doesn't make much sense as it should be marked as historical content imo. Make it historical, give it a note "Cobalt Armor was replaced by Jungle Armor in v1.0.3 patch" and "Cobalt Armor will return in a later update (ref here)". <font color="Blue">Ju <font color="Blue">ze User_Juze_sig_icon.jpg 12:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Crafting recipes
Please don't put them side by side on the pages (like on the armor pages) It totally breaks the page at lower resolutions. We need to aim for an average of 1024 x 764 resolution because that's still what the majority of people view at. It's why I had changed them all back once, I don't want to do it again. Thanks! -- Wynthyst  talk  07:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It wasn't me. I had the same feeling, but hadn't gotten around to undoing them yet. happypal (talk &bull; contribs) 07:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah.. sorry, wasn't paying too much attention. I just saw you adding the wrapper and though it was part of the same thing :D File:Broken page.jpg This is at 1152 wide... you can see id just doesn't work. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png ]] talk  07:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)