Forum:Wiki Mediation

Sannse (Staff)
Hi Everyone.

So this wiki has been going through some difficult times. What I would like to try to do is to have a public and full discussion on a few of the issues. It's not clear yet that all involved will be willing to participate, but I will be unbanning and Gracey91 and Mathmagician to allow them to join this discussion.

Generally, staff try not to get involved in every wiki dispute. It's important that each community controls it's own day-to-day management, and works out the best way for their unique community to interact and work together. But it seems this dispute is one that needs a bit more help, and my aim here is to facilitate the discussion and try to help make it a productive, useful, and successful one. And, importantly, to try and help this not escalate further and affect everyone's enjoyment of the wiki.

From what I'm hearing, there are a couple of areas we need to talk about. One question is how videos are handled on the wiki. At the moment, HeroGaming is the "Video Admin" and organizes which videos should be on the site. Some here feel the selection of videos should be more open while others are fine with the current arrangement. This is something that will need to be discussed by the community, but isn't really the key issue right now.

What we need to work out at the moment, is:
 * What exactly are the areas of disagreement between HeroGaming and Mathmagician and Gracy?
 * What has been happening both on and off wiki to trigger this problem?
 * How can we resolve the disagreement and bring calm back to the wiki?
 * Should Mathmagician and Gracy's rights should be replaced?

One aspect of this is that I would like to hear from editing users of this wiki (and, in particular and Gracy, HeroGaming and Mathmagician). I would say that the reading/viewing users (in particular those who follow HeroGaming on YouTube) have had their say, let's hear from the editors now.

I realize that some of you may be concerned that speaking frankly may be difficult in the current situation, but it really will help to hear from you. If you only feel comfortable commenting logged out, that's OK, although I'll be giving more weight to comments that I can see come from regular contributors (if you are editing from an IP that you used logged in, I may be able see that you are an editor here - although I will not share IP or account information with others of course).

So, to start with, I would like to hear publicly from each side: what do you feel are the roots of this issue? What are the problems, and what have been the conversations so far, both here and off-wiki? (Off-wiki will be harder to look at, because incidents and conversations may not be provable - but I would like to know where elements of this dispute have happened).

Please, let's keep this as calm and civil as possible. I have to be on other wikis too, but will try to call in as much as possible to assist in this discussion.

Thanks all -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 21:46, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Who are the admins we are dealing with?

 * http://fortesting.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Gracey91


 * Well gracey is someone who thinks he should get his way with a gun used on wikia staff. Check the link and on the 6th edit down he says someone should take a gun into wikia headquarters because he doesn't like the new message board feature.... Does anyone still really want him as admin? I will continue for the sake of completeness.
 * Mathman could have been a good admin had he not been corrupted by gracey's lies and came to me to ask for the truth. Rather than blindly following someone into rigging votes and whatever ponzi schemes they wanted to start in order to make fast cash.
 * also gracey has left the wiki yet again to go to this wiki http://wiki.terrariaonline.com/User_talk%3aGracey91 This is the second time and thinks an article full of lies about me is funny. Obviously me and him will never be able to work well together.
 * If you read his talk page it says that hes welcomed with open arms by who? happypal.... I havent done much investigation into whats actually going on in the convo but I will say happy has offered me and the former admin money to trash this wiki. funny that gracey should contact him the instant he goes to that wiki.
 * here is a quote from him on that wiki. "i plan to use this wiki from now on i just have to get use to how things are done here. I think this wiki suits my style a bit more, i like the structure of the wiki and fact its not full of little kids." so if he wants to use that wiki, likes it better, and doenst like kids on this wiki then let him go to the other wiki. (avearage age of a terraria player is 15.) We dont need an admin that jokes about shooting staff and threatens to destroy the wiki while saying he doesnt like the wiki because of the fact that very young people use the wiki.

What exactly are the areas of disagreement between HeroGaming and Mathmagician and Gracy?

 * Attempts to make money using the wiki.
 * Lies told to other members to try and make it look like I was using the wiki for a fundraiser.
 * contacting others off wiki to rig voting.
 * Offering up ideas such as close all articles and forward them to a site that they could make money off of.
 * general lack of integrity and lying around every single corner and hiding actions off of the wiki.
 * saying that unless they gained power would rather destroy the wiki.

What has been happening both on and off wiki to trigger this problem?

 * Off the wiki gracey has been trying to find ways to make money by starting his own site. This mostly started because I talked about having a forum and then he started trying to find ways to earn cash off of it.
 * A week before this issue gracey quit the wiki and vandalized the for testing wiki we use by deleting pages and content.
 * contacted other admins/users and told them lies about me so that he could try to swing votes. Telling others I was using the wiki for fundraisers.
 * His overall goal was to either get power or destroy the wiki. I posted one of his youtube messages on my talk page.
 * Trying to forward pages to his own site was the real goal. They wanted money and power to abuse so they can do it. Thats all this whole thing boils down too.

How can we resolve the disagreement and bring calm back to the wiki?

 * It can be resolved by following the communities vote.
 * We dont need admins who's goals are to lie about other admins to gain power or try to earn money of the wiki. If they are so desperate for power that they would lie and rig voting there is no place for them here.

Should Mathmagician and Gracy's rights should be replaced?

 * Under no circumstances should Gracey be allowed back on the wiki. I am not 100% about math anymore but his conduct was very disturbing and needs to be addressed. I am not saying yes i want him on the wiki, I am saying i would like him to address a few things before i give my final opinion of him and his involement in the matters.
 * The community has voted and after they respond if they would like a re-vote they will lose by thousands again.
 * The community's vote should be respected and not thought of as a joke. hiding things in the community portal so that the few people that you have tried to rig votes with can participate is unjust. We had a front page vote so that the whole community can vote. It's not about editors vs users, it's the community as a whole. they lost their admin rights by 1500 votes.
 * The video isnt an issue because it was more than clear that the community 19:1 was in favor of me handling video.
 * The issue of gracey and math was 3:1 so it is something that can be argued.
 * Either way the vote should stand. The wiki should be able to stand on its vote anything less is a disrespect to the process of even having votes on a wiki. Whats the point if liars can have it overturned by lying to staff through their teeth.

Final thoughts

 * Its def not funny to threaten to shoot up staff because you want something your way. I don't even understand why wikia wants to discuss reinstating Gracey.


 * This my friends is why if they rejoin the wiki or staff lets them rejoin I will be leaving this place and admins who think its good to threatening people with guns to get what they want can run the place.


 * I would like to thank gracey for doing such a good job of hiding evidence off the wiki but forgetting not to post death threats about staff.... Thanks,

HeroGaming 22:30, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

What Has Transpired, My Point of View
Hero has had more than his fair chance to share his view of events with the community. Now, it's my turn.
 * 1) First of all, the idea to consider a change to the video policy was proposed by me, not Gracey--after reading through some comments on the home page talk.
 * 2) Gracey agreed with my proposal, and established a poll on the Terraria Wiki:Community Portal. The reason it was not put on the front page was most likely because polls have always been placed on the Community Portal before--but you'd have to ask Gracey. In any case, I personally had nothing to do with the creation or placement of the poll (nor have I ever created a poll in all of my 1000+ edits), despite what Hero may say.
 * 3) Afterwards, Gracey, with my backing, created a forum post where people could propose a change to the video policy. This forum post is archived here. The forum post was NOT secretly hidden away, as I clearly pointed out its existence on the front page of the wiki. Hero was immediately notified of its existence. This was no secret. Apparently, Hero would like to make you think it was, because he deleted Gracey's notification from his talk page--twice. Also, Gracey forwarded an email to me signed by Sannse (passed on to her by Tim DaNASCAT after Gracey emailed him), suggesting the creation of the forum post to discuss a change in the video policy. Unless I'm mistaken, the creation of the forum post was specifically recommended by Staff.
 * 4) After adding his viewpoint to the video forum post, he changed his mind and decided to delete it. This action is specifically counter to the recommendation given to Gracey via email by Sannse. Furthermore, in doing so, Hero vastly overstepped his administrative rights. Bureaucrats and administrators DO NOT have the right to tamper with (much less delete) community discussions about policy, simply because they don't like the content contained therein. This action was a blatant violation of the Good Faith Policy, a core concept on all Wikia wikis.
 * 5) Hero removed Gracey's administrator rights and blocked him from editing the wiki. Shortly thereafter, he did the same to me as well.
 * 6) Hero established a new poll on the home page, while Gracey and I remained blocked from the wiki. While the poll was up (for what, maybe a few hours?), he blatantly asked his livestream viewers (screenshot) to go to the wiki and vote on whether he should remain video admin and whether Gracey and I should be permanently banned from the wiki. The results of this poll should be held invalid, as they obviously represent the views of his audience. They are not in any way an accurate representation of this wiki's community. Is there an honest person here who denies this? Polls are by nature easy to manipulate and should not ever be used as the final deciding factor on a wiki. That's why Gracey and I created a forum post in the first place. That's probably also a factor in why Sannse decided to create this forum post. The proper way to resolve issues on a wiki is through written communication.
 * 7) Hero created several blog posts in which he characterized mine and Gracey's conducted while we were blocked from the wiki, without any ability to defend our position. The comments on these blog posts demonstrate that the community is not entirely behind Hero. Furthermore, Hero has been deleting comments on his blog posts as well.
 * 8) Hero's absolutely ridiculous antics have been well documented on Community Central. I highly encourage you to read that forum thread. That thread is more than just a little unchecked emotion. It proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Hero thinks he owns the wiki. I'm sorry, but a single person cannot own a wiki.

Off-Wiki Communications
http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:353340
 * 1) For transparency, I'd like to link to my communications with Sannse regarding this matter. Yes, there were some private emails between us, but there is a lot of communication to be seen over on Community Central: http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:352915
 * 1) The list of users I have contacted regarding this issue outside the wiki, before this ordeal began is very short: Gracey91, Dzylon, The Pathogen. In Dzylon and Pathogen's case, it was to inform them of the private communications between Hero, Gracey and myself over on the For Testing wiki.
 * 2) I have been in contact with the Russian Terraria Community both before and during this incident. Initially, it was to discuss forming a partnership between our wikis. After being banned from the wiki, Gracey and I had to inform them that we couldn't form the partnership--because we were blocked from the wiki. Feel free to google translate this page if you want the details.

Areas of Disagreement

 * 1) I disagree with Hero having exclusive control of the production of video content via his youtube partners. I enjoy some of his videos, as I have said before over on his talk page. But there are a lot of other good youtubers out there, such as Yrimir and TerrariaHelp. I feel that it's in the wiki's best interests to rediscuss our video policy as a community (that's why Gracey and I created that video forum post), hopefully to allow a little bit more freedom in the posting of video content. Hero's videos are certainly welcome on the wiki. I just disagree with him having the final say over the matter.
 * 2) I strongly disagree with Hero's conduct throughout this affair. The rigged voting. Banning me without valid reason (again, I can't defend Gracey's conduct, but what exactly am I guilty of?). Covering up evidence. Additionally, Hero has had run ins with people before. Consider when he stole copyrighted content from Cursed, and then told current Cursed staff member Wynthyst that it wasn't a big deal. Just read his forum post above mine. His conduct is certainly in need of improvement. Hero's a great youtuber. A great person in the Terraria Community. He's done so much for this wiki and the game. But his personal conduct on the wiki is in serious need of improvement.
 * 3) Bad Blood: I disagree with some of Gracey's outlashes at Hero concerning these matters. But, you have to realize that Gracey and Hero have a lot of history together. I do not have any such history with Hero, so I have no reason to hate him and he should have no reason to hate me. In fact, before this incident, Hero and I were getting along just fine (that's just one of several positive communications between us). Gracey can speak for his own conduct. It's not my place to do so.

What Caused All This?

 * 1) This is just my opinion, but I believe the single biggest reason for this incident lies in a private disagreement that Gracey had with Hero over the layout of the front page about a week or two earlier. Gracey became so upset over the incident that he was considering leaving the wiki. I stepped in and intervened in their argument, because I didn't want to see Gracey leave. Tempers were flaring at the time, so I felt it necessary to use some strong words to resolve the issue. In hindsight, there was perhaps a better way I could have handled the issue--but my intentions at least were good.
 * 2) I think that Hero is personally upset with Gracey (and vice-versa), and that Hero banned me because I had the appearances of siding with Gracey against him--when all I really wanted to do was engage the community in a discussion about the video policy. He's unfortunately gone absolutely mad in his attempt to retain control of "his" wiki.

Why I (Mathmagician) Should Be Allowed To Return

 * 1) Aside from the fact that I have the appearances of siding with Gracey over the video policy issue, I have not wronged Hero nor attempted to do so. I do not bear him any ill will. Also, I have made many positive contributions as an editor here, and helped a lot of people with my walkthroughs on my blog. I love this wiki and I have never vandalized it. I also possess some knowledge that few editors or administrators currently on this wiki have, and am fully willing to share this information with others for the benefit of the wiki.
 * 2) What logical basis is there for my removal from the community? Should I be removed simply because the current bureaucrat doesn't like me (again, I'm not even sure what he has against me exactly)? Hero's accusations against Gracey do not apply to me. And whatever accusations he's leveled against me are false at best and slanderous at worst. Please prove what exactly it is that I've done wrong.

How Can We Resolve This
Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 01:37, February 2, 2012 (UTC)'''
 * 1) Speaking for myself, I am willing to come to terms with Hero and see if we can find a way for the both of us to be on this wiki and contribute to the community together. By the things he's said however, unfortunately Hero doesn't seem willing to work things out with me =(
 * 2) This incident has made it abundantly clear that I cannot trust Hero's conduct as a Wikia user. I request a community discussion about a change in the bureaucratic and administrative structure of this wiki: Either Hero is removed as bureaucrat and replaced, or there is no bureaucrat at all, or a second bureaucrat is appointed to keep Hero's power in check. Again, Hero thinks he runs the wiki. I absolutely cannot approve of his attitude and conduct. It is 1) detrimental for the entire community and 2) profoundly wrong for the wiki to continue to be run in this fashion.
 * 3) I would like to push for a reconsideration of equality in user status in this community. '''All users should be treated as equals and have equal say in all things. Bureaucrats or administrators do not outrank normal users. They're simply normal users with a little extra experience and a few extra buttons to help clean up vandalism and such.

General comments
@Hero: This is a wiki. You don't hog everything to yourself. If you want to do so, make a blog here, not here. --J&bull;t 23:52, February 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Jeffwang: as I said above, I'm asking the regular editors of this wiki to comment here - and not those from other wikis. Please leave this alone for now, thank you.
 * HeroGaming: please do not delete any comments from this page for the duration of the discussion. If anything needs to be removed, I will do so. Equally, if anyone needs to be blocked for actions on this thread (or related pages) then I will do so. It would not be appropriate for that action to come from you at the moment. Thanks -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:21, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that, then, Sannse. --J&bull;t 00:23, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough I just want the discussion to be on topic.--HeroGaming 00:25, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yep.
As mentioned above, Hero asked his thousands of Livestream viewers to vote. They are obviously not part of the wiki's community. If that's not enough, I am in possession of videos. Also, I have been told the Master Sword was deleted to mask something. The deletion logs can be found here. If you'd like to restore that page, Sannse, be my guest. (In the screenshot, there are 665 viewers. This is because the shot was taken at the beginning of the broadcast). Dzylon 01:48, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * This only proves more so that I always bring traffic to the wiki, whether we are having trouble or I am referring them for articles. It's down right silly to try and separate the viewers and act like they are less important than the editors. They are MORE important than the editors. Because a lot of them become both.--HeroGaming 02:40, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * The master sword was deleted because it was a joke with my subscribers to get them editing on the wiki. I made a joke item for them and refereed them all to the wiki to find out how to make it. it was one of many promotions of the wiki. It was made for fun with my subscribers. Again more promotion of the wiki. You guys can try and separate out all the people who are the users and not the editors but its not that simple. Dzylon can you please address the fact that you were contacted and told that I was using the wiki for a fundraiser for $1700.--HeroGaming 02:10, February 2, 2012 (UTC)HeroGaming 03:38, February 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Master Sword page was created so Hero could link users to his livestream where he had his donation link. Under that was an appeal for money for his holiday. If you read the master sword page and comments you will see other admins were openly against you doing it, others also complained. I would hope that's looked into as all the proof is still there. Gracey91 (talk • contribs • count) 05:42, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Wiki ownership
I have never claimed to own the wiki. I will claim to be the reason it was successful and got to #1 in google and that is the whole reason we have all the editors we do. It's because I have directed thousands to the wiki. The whole reason you are hear and not terraria online is because of me, beacause I got us to number one in google with all of the promotion.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * It comes off as slightly arrogant to me for you to claim that you're the whole reason I'm here. Secondly, there is no need for a statement from you that you own the wiki. In my eyes, your actions have regrettably spoken for themselves.

Hundreds can attest to this.
Also during that livestream I said to vote how you would want to vote. I said its your wiki if you want them to stay its your vote and dont do it based on me. That is why so many people chose to have them stay. Again acting like the community who made this wiki as large as it is are invalid is incorrect thinking.--HeroGaming 02:13, February 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * The master sword was deleted because it was a joke with my subscribers to get them editing on the wiki. I made a joke item for them and refereed them all to the wiki to find out how to make it. it was one of initial promotions of the wiki. It was made for fun with my subscribers. Again more promotion of the wiki. You guys can try and separate out all the people who are the users and not the editors but its not that simple. Dzylon can you please address the fact that you were contacted and told that I was using the wiki for a fundraiser for $1700.--HeroGaming 02:10, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't terribly concern me what you said on the livestream, so much as the fact that you used it to get votes. This was wrong. Not all of your livestream or youtube viewers are part of this community. The ones who are could have found the poll on the front page themselves. You were flat out wrong to campaign with the opposition (Gracey and I) banned, and I will not concede this point until the day I move to a country that has a 1-party government system.

Real issue.
The issue for me was never video. It is more than clear to anyone that complainers are vocal and happy people don't have to complain because they are happy. If you wanna see how many people on youtube are users i have sent to the wiki i should post a video not tell people about it in a live stream. The real issue was gracey's intentions and your wiki lies to people to sway voting. Saying I used the wiki for fundraisers to try to slander me to gain power in voting.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have not perpetrated "wiki lies" to sway voting. I apologize for this appearance, and I wish I knew how to prove to you that this is not the case. However, as the person with the large youtube following (who has admitted to sending most people to the wiki), statistically speaking, it is you who are more likely to be guilty of lying to sway voting, so I think it's kind of silly for you to think that I did so. Since you command a large following, the return on investment would be greater for you--not so much for me.

I was wrong about who started the vote.
I will admit initial confusion as to who started the video debate but this is due to off wiki conversations with Gracey stating that he was going to destroy the wiki. I originally thought this was part of his threat. Video aside you both attempted to rig voting to gain power by contacting members off the wiki. Told lies to members saying that I used the wiki for a fundraiser? Can you provide an edit for that? It didn't happen.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can see that you're really offended by the fundraiser thing. I shared this information with Dzylon with the explicit disclaimer "This is something I heard from Gracey, I don't know if it's true or not." I did not share that information with anyone else nor did I attempt to use it against you. I apologize for sharing gossip.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * However, since it's a sticky issue, let's put the truth out in the open so we can move forward on sound basis. Sannse, please restore this so-called Master Sword page so that the truth can be seen plain as day.
 * well I feel i will stop a train wreck waiting to happen by explaining what was happening with this page. Since gracey has doctored up such a good story. I can have hundreds verify this story as well as admin port5 I believe. In early days when I was trying to get us to number one in google I would do silly things like tell my subscribers in the livestream that their was an ultimate weapon on the wiki. Then i would link the wiki and the would all going trying to find it. The would get to the article and it would say sorry HEROs not telling you how to craft it unless your in the livestream at this time. I would never be streaming at that time because I worked those hours at AT&T so it was to get people to the wiki as a joke and then tell them they can't have an awnser. Yea it was very childish but gracey took it way outta context. sorry but you must have the impression that the article was made to get people to my livestream which is not at all the case. Sure it was silly but it's one of the silly pranks that got us to #1 in google. If i had to go back id do it again. We saw a huge influx of editors after, this was all from the joke and many other games I ran. i gave away t-shirts to the best editor of the week and all kinds of stuff. If people want to take something outta context fine sure it looks bad but explained it only looks bad you brought it up. I am a nice guy who has done nothing but help the wiki grow and when you stop trying to find fault you'll hopefully see that.--HeroGaming 06:34, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

No notification prior to change? why?
I was not notified of the community pole or any intentions to change video till after the creation. This is because it was an attempt to push something through like with congress. The first pole was in the community portal and was u 2 days before the first notification of any attempted changes came to me.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:12, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, forgot to add, I think that I addressed this below in the "Let's Be Honest" section. You've asked about this in multiple sections, so I wasn't really sure where to say what.

The thread was removed because it was spam
The thread was removed because it was spam in my opinion. Our wiki had dealt with this long before you came along Math. To re post a settled issue to me was spam. I was never informed of any involvement from staff. Why? Because this wasn't the real issue as I have outline Graceys real goal was control, Regardless of video. Do i think i should have removed it now? No after talking with Sannse I see how things come off. but tell me why there was no notification of a possible vote sent to me prior to the vote? Because it was an underhanded politician tactic. Video is not the real issue.


 * I'm not entirely sure I buy this... if it was spam, you should have reprimanded me for posting spam (when in my edit history have I posted spam?). Instead, you simply banned me. Additionally, there was no notification sent to me of a possible vote when you held a vote on the front page. You repeatedly use the phrase "underhanded politician tactic," but I don't see how that applies to me. If anything, people should be questioning you about that, given your documented (proven, not asserted) conduct.

Trying to separate the viewers from the editors.
How many users have over a hundred edit? Under 200-300? how many viewer? Millions, that's because this is a wiki of viewers. The entire community was built from youtube. Its the reason for the wikis success. It's the reason we got to number one in google search results. To say that they aren't involved when they are the users of the wiki and the biggest group is a contradictory thing. If i am using the wiki to fund my own channel than the user are from the wiki. If i am not then i have sent thousands of people to the wiki. Which is it. Because to act like they aren't valid in this argument is silly. They are the largest part of the community. You can't act like they aren't part of the community when they are the reason its successful some turn into editors some are just viewers. One of them is one of our biggest admins. You must be joking if you think that they aren't a valid part of the community. By Sannse's own admission there is vast amount of people involved in this wiki that I have brought here. The more you look at it the more its apparent. If i am the reason for #1 in google than 90% of the editors here are here by default because of me. Egotistical? No. Truthful yes. Am i proud of that? Most definitely.


 * Some of your youtube following and fanbase are part of this community. Certainly not all. Furthermore, I do indeed think they are a valid part of the community. However--when it comes to the particular issue of the exact manner in which the poll you held on the front page went down--I just don't think that that was the voice of this wiki community.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Secondly, let's be honest. There aren't that many good editors around here. It's nice that you bring in a lot of viewers, but I think what we really need badly are more editors (who aren't 10 years old), don't you think?

To be honest.
A lot of thing heard from gracey were on a we basis. I should have came to you about the accusations. I can't say for certain if what users said about you is true and you were really going off the wiki and telling people I was using the wiki for a fundraiser just to slander me. Did you do this? And if so where are your edits to support this?

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I did not slander you nor did I attempt to do so. There shouldn't be any edits to support that notion, because that's not the case.

Gracey spoke of you guys as a team when talking about destroying the wiki and others made the claims about you trying to sway votes by contact off the wiki. I would like to know why you never informed me of any intentions to change the video policy prior to the vote? It was a politicians tactic and I would like that addressed.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was not aware that I needed your permission before starting a community forum discussion. I should not have to get anyone's permission to do so, just as I don't need anyone's permission to create a template or edit a page. As for the poll, see above. This wasn't a politician's tactic. If it was, why did Gracey inform you of the forum post? In fact, why was a forum post created at all? Surely a wiser politician would have stuck with just the poll hidden on the community portal. If you think about it, Hero, the facts just don't correlate.

You don't seem to understand this wiki and marketing go hand and hand.
Sure there are other youtubers that play terraria. Yes some do tutorials. No none of the tutorial users do better tutorials or promote the wiki more than i do. If you had came to me prior to the vote you could have been more informed. Because of the promotion through my videos the wiki has gained thousands of editors. We are now #1 in google. All editors gained from being number one in google are directly related to my promotion of the wiki and nothing else. I won't conceed this issue. You can call me prideful and I will say I am truthful. I have thousands of references that will tell you they use this wiki because of me. Now other youtubers promote other wikis. yrimir in particular is not valid to have any videos on this wiki. He supports another wiki in almost all of his videos. I am sorry his videos are not going up on the wiki. He is a strong strong supporter of terraria online and he links them in almost every description and puts a note in the videos as the wiki he uses. We are not going to post videos of someone whos intention is to grow another wiki. This is also the case with almost every single youtuber outside of me who does tutorials. Terrariahelp does item video weeks after the item is out and never links to our wiki. He does however link to terrariaonline. He has also had issues with stealing other people content in the community but i am not going to address that here. His video aren't top priority, but i have posted his before when they weren't promoting another wiki. If your goal is to build the wiki and keep it in the number one spot for google then recommending yrimir or terrariahelp who are huge supporters of terrariaonline is not in line with the wikis goals and trying to get them to change allegiance is a bad idea too because sending traffic to them when they have so many pro terrariaonline vids is a bad idea.

Again all of this would have been made clear if you would have spoken to me prior. Instead of blindly listening to gracey about how i use the wiki for a fundraiser or how i dont let others submit videos. terrariahelp prior to allying with terrariaonline was able to submit videos to the wiki. he chose to start working with them and he does videos for their wiki now. I am fine with working with other video editors and I have posted plenty of other peoples videos and there are many articles i haven't even covered. We will never post the videos of users directly supporting another wiki. That much should be common sense.HeroGaming 03:18, February 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm really glad that I got to read this section that you wrote, because I have a lot I would like to say here. It seems that we might have a fundamental disagreement here. People who play Terraria are not interested in petty conflicts between wikis or people (see all the older comments on your blog?). Terraria Online is a great part of the Terraria Community as a whole (all people who play Terraria across the world). There is no need for hostile competition. Keep in mind that there are people who use both wikis, and are not necessarily dedicated to one or the other. Wikis are not exclusive clubs. They're just another open resource. To see you (and Gracey!) be hateful towards Terraria Online frankly disgusts me, because the people at Terraria Online are Terraria players just like you and me.


 * Content on a wiki should be something that the community at large would like to see. I don't think it's 100% reasonable to expect ALL videos to be from your youtube partners and to be reviewed by you before being posted here--it's simply too much work for one person. While quality of content is important--so is user's freedom in being able to contribute all types of content to the wiki. I think, with some discussion, a middle ground here can be reached.


 * Other youtubers such as Yrimir, TerrariaHelp, etc. have large followings--larger than those of most of your youtube partners, whose videos you seem to use quite sparingly (correct me if I'm wrong). In order to grow this wiki and promote the greater Terraria Community across the world (you love the game, so you should want to do this), it's in your best interests, as well as the best interests of this wiki's community, to provide a diversity of content. Reaching out to these other youtubers and trying to get their videos here is a great thing for the community here.


 * The only reason this wouldn't work is if copyright is being infringed. If copyright isn't an issue, there's no reason that the same video can't be on two different wikis, just as there's no reason that the same video can't appear on multiple video hosting sites. There's so many people across the world who play Terraria, all of which are potential members of this wiki's community. Why can't we drop the hostility between wikis and be open, honest and friendly with everyone? That's exactly the kind of thing that will really help the community here to grow and be loved.


 * Lastly, I want to add that it is not any one person's place to decide what the goals of the wiki are, because no one person can own a wiki. I would like to see some community discussion over what the wiki's goals are, rather than having everything being decided by you without conversation and input from the community. If this was settled before my time, let's open it up for discussion again, because the people you settled it with are no longer here, and the current active members of the community (not just admins, everyone) ought to be given a chance to have their say.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * In closing, I reiterate that I would like to work things out with you. I'm not so fast to cave in and concede on every point. There are some more things we need to talk about. But I would like to see some more community discussions, and a change in the administrative structure. I reiterate that I do not any longer have full confidence in you as the sole bureaucrat on this wiki, and I think that's a very fair point to reiterate, given your abuse of power and how you handled this entire issue. Whether that means having a 2nd bureaucrat, or no bureaucrat at all--whatever the solution, I think something needs to be talked about here.

To Begin
After watching the conflict that's transpired over the past few weeks, I've still not come to a static conclusion. I've not sided with Hero, nor with Gracey and Math. But, in saying that, I'm sure of one thing; As a passionate wiki editor and player of Terraria, I only want what's best for the community. I see that Hero's putting more effort into his grammar and spelling, as well as his attitude towards different video material (Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer Hero's videos, regardless of any slight mistakes - They're more visually appealing than most others).

Continuing On
I've read through all the evidence that's been revealed to me, and I believe that Hero does what he does for the love of the game and the wiki itself. I don't judge if he makes money off of his YouTube partnership, regardless of the nature of the videos or where they're posted. Seeing what Gracey had done first almost made me decide in the favor of Hero without hesitation, but I decided to delve further first - and it's a good thing I did. That extra delving is what put me into this central position of how I feel on the matter. In my judgement, I think both Gracey and Math should be allowed back onto the wiki, but should Gracey or Math do anything wrong (And I'm still unsure of what Math did to begin with), then they could be removed again, this time for good. This is just how I feel on the matter in a base way though.

In Conclusion
I may not have much of a say in the matter, but as Hero asked for my Point of View on the matter, I decided to put mine forward. I do hope that it doesn't offend anyone, in any way. If it does, please inform me so. If there is anything more that I should put my opinion forward on, please don't hesitate to say so either. Thanks, Path out. 04:12, February 2, 2012 (UTC)