Forum:Administration Discussion/archive

The Terraria wiki has been going through some difficult times over the last few weeks. There was a dispute on the wiki, that ultimately resulted in a decision by Wikia staff that HeroGaming and Gracey91 would lose their admin rights. It's too early for those rights to be replaced (and we will need to work out as a community if and how that should happen) but we can start talking about the processes and roles on this wiki for the future.

This page is for a discussion about how admins should be selected for this wikis, and what the roles "admin" and "bureaucrat" should mean here.

We are using this page so that we can have both a long-form conversation, and allow for shorter comments. You are welcome to participate in either way.

Firstly, some ground-rules.
 * Please keep the conversation calm, productive and civil. Please share your ideas, do not attack other users.
 * Please do not edit or remove other people's comments. If someone is excessively abusive, then Sannse will act as a moderator and remove comments and ban if necessary.
 * Please do your best to say why you feel a particular way. It helps us all to understand each other if you explain your views
 * The most productive discussions include flexibility and compromise. Let's try to work together to find the right solutions for this wiki.

To start with, let's hear ideas. What process should be used on this wiki to choose admins and bureaucrats? What should the responsibilities of the roles be? And what are the qualities an admin should show as they look after the wiki? -- sannse http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb32675/wikia/images/e/e9/WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:53, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Please feel free to edit this page to add your thoughts, or to comment below

Dak47922's Suggestions
Well this is a very tough subject to nail down. When a wiki user hears the word ADMIN they immediatly think"power" or "the man in charge". An admin must act in order to maintan the hairline balance of presice & accurate information and Community happyness. This is not somthing that anyone can come along and just "make happen". Therefore I feel that Admins should be chosen based on their history and involvement with THIS wiki. If an admin is abusing his or her power, or just not doing their job I think It should be ultimatly up to the comminity to decide wether or not they should step down from the title of admin. To quote the World English Dictionary an Administrator is: "a person who administers the affairs of an organization, official body, etc". As for bureaucrats I think they are mainly there to take on the extra work When admins are overly busy.(there the right hand man to the admins) I think that the appointing and/or dissmisal of bureaucrats should be handled inernally amoungst all of the other anmins. My opinion wont likley account for too much or change anyone's thoughts on this matter but I feel this method would work out the best for the community in the long run, and isnt this what its all about? Not income or revinue or page rankings but satisfaction of the wiki's users. Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts on this matter.

Dak47922 talk contrib count 01:44, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Responsibilities, Qualities & Processes - Math
I myself have some ideas as to who exactly I'd like to see as admins here, and when it's time to name names, I will name names. For now though, Sannse has made it clear that this discussion isn't primarily for that. To keep the discussion on topic, here are some of my thoughts about administrator/bureaucrat duties and the process by which they should be selected going forward. Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 02:45, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Admin Responsibilities
I believe that administrators should have the following key responsibilities, among others:
 * 1) Maintaining the wiki and keeping it clean.
 * 2) Making decisions on behalf of the community.
 * 3) Engaging the community, answering questions and helping people out.
 * 4) Teaching editors how to make good edits and about MediaWiki software.
 * 5) Using their powers responsibly.

Admin Qualities
Here are some qualities that I think are nice to see in potential admins, because many of them line up nicely with the admin responsibilities that I suggested above:
 * 1) Loves Terraria and helping out the wiki.
 * 2) Tries to be friendly and helpful to others.
 * 3) Makes high quality edits, with solid spelling and grammar.
 * 4) Has knowledge of / interest in learning some advanced wiki markup (Templates, etc.).
 * 5) Hates vandalism and knows how to clean it up.
 * 6) Has served as a Chat Moderator or Rollback member and used these powers responsibly.

Admin Process
I think that new administrators should be selected by the current board of administrators, with input from the rest of the community. Both viewers and editors need to be free to voice their opinions and concerns if they so desire, but final decisions should lie with the current administrators.

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 06:13, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: (clarification) I was not intending to apply this idea for selecting admins at this point in time. I meant this as a future idea for when the wiki is in a peaceful state.

Bureaucrats
Every wiki needs at least one bureaucrat, since only bureaucrats have the ability to give another user admin rights. There are a range of views as to what responsibilities and authority bureaucrats should have. On one end of the spectrum, bureaucrats can be considered to completely outrank administrators, and have the authority to override admin decisions. On the other end, an idealist might say that a bureaucrat is simply an admin who can make other admins.

My stance on this lies somewhere in the middle. I feel that bureaucrats need to be able to perform administrative duties, and should have a mostly equal status to that of an admin. However, I also think that a bureaucrat needs to be a leader for the community, and it is their right to serve as a "tiebreaking" vote when administrators are divided on an issue.

Most importantly, bureaucrats need to be trusted to use their powers responsibly, not at their own personal whim. In the long run, I think it's important for the wiki to have at least 2 active bureaucrats who can keep each other's power in check. I feel that bureaucrats, like administrators, should be chosen by the current administrators--with input from the rest of the community. Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 02:45, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

My Thoughts & Ideas-Donoman
Well, I was first want to say that an Admin should be someone responsible, and used to being the leader not someone with a huge amount of edits as that shows no experience. What I feel about this let the admins and bureaucrats get together and decide 2 main leaders. Then they need to come to a decision on how to choose the other admins they need to be aware at what is going on on this wiki all the time making the best edits and decisions to make this wiki better, but the community should also be included in this them swaying the vote the most. I just want what's best for the wiki and if I saw it crumble from this I wouldn't know what I would do?

Donoman 03:19, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

My thoughts
I beleive that admins should be selected by using a RFA and having anyone who wants to add there opinion, at the end a tally will be taken to decide if they take the postion. Its the way wikipedia do it and it seems to work very well.

The roles are an admin keeps the wiki clean, blocks users, manages issue, helps people etc. The only extra role a bcrat has is they can add/remove rights. I don't see this as anything special and feel they are nothing but an admin really. They don't deserve and special status or treatment, just beacuse they can add/remove someone. I belevie a bcrat shouldn't see them selves as special or above the other admins as really a wiki can easily function without bcrats but it wont go so well without admins.

What qualities i think an admin needs to have.


 * To be experienced with the mediawiki software - an ability to edit css/js and templates.


 * To have a desire to further there knowledge.


 * Happy to answer users questions.


 * Willing to deal with disputes.


 * Know how to deal with vandalism correctly.


 * Have enough time on there hands to be able to do the work.


 * A full understanding of the layout of the wiki and policies used on the wiki.

What qualities a bcrat should have is:


 * The ability to listen to the community and enough time spent on the wiki to see what people are like as in there editing habbits so it is an informed descision not just a whim. Gracey91 (talk • contribs • count) 04:14, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Path's PoV
Well, after finally updating my wireless router, I'm much more "back-in-business" than I was before. I'll open with saying; I'm a huge fan of Terraria, and I've been playing it for almost as long as I've been an editor here on the wiki. (Yes, that's right. I was editing here before I started playing) Anyway, I'll carry on here.

To Start With...
I'm going to be quick and to-the-point about this, at least for now:
 * My view of what an Admin needs (Here on the Terraria Wiki)
 * I see admins as users who have shown the responsibility, the experience, the ability, and the attitude to be accepted as leaders for the masses here, even if only by a step or two.
 * I see them as role-models, and as rule-setters for the wiki community's behaviour.
 * I see them as responsible (not necessarily adults, but definitely not children), well-spoken members of the community that have been part of said community for a reasonable length of time.
 * My view of a Bureaucrat's qualities here
 * They need to obviously have all the qualities that an admin has, as well as being civil at least 90% of the time (Preferably all of the time)
 * I think they need to be very mature members of the community itself, and should have a long-standing good reputation across wikia, or a very good reputation on this wiki in particular.

Continuing On
Now that I've covered that, I'll speak on the current situation; I do agree with the RFA method, although I also agree a normal vote could be satisfactory, even if only used to find valid candidates. I personally have no problem with admins who "covet" their abilities, as they must certainly be well-earned - But; There is a limit to what one can call coveting (I'll let you decide on what you think is going too far). Should Sannse be chosen to decide on the bcrats and the admins, I'll gladly accept the decisions made.

In Closing
I've always acted for what I believe to be the good of the wiki, including what I've said, what I've edited out, reverted, replied to, and even how I've replied. Should I have offended anyone at any point, I apologize sincerely for that. I wish to help keep the wiki a helpful source of information, a regularly sought-after resource at that, and I wish to keep the wiki's popularity up among the community, both of Wikia and of Terraria in general. Anyway, that's what I think covered for now, if I think of anything else, or if anything else is wanted, I'll edit it in and please let me know. Thanks, Path out. 09 Feb, 2012 - 04:56:20am

My views upon Admin rights
An admin should go up in the ranks to gain admin experience. The admins should be kind & have a good grasp on spelling & grammar, as well as a history of reverting vandalism. User:Koggeh

What should an ideal admin or bureaucrat be?
Personally, over the 5+ years since I started visiting forums in general, I've seen some good admins, and I've seen some bad admins, enough for me to give me an idea as to what to watch out for.

My opinions on what an ideal leader (admin or bureaucrat) should be like:


 * Is active within, and cares about, the community and the site


 * Listens well to others


 * Is honest


 * Makes fair and reasonable decisions as to how to punish those that cause trouble


 * Is authoritative in his/her decisions (note that this is different from being authoritarian, despite their similar names)


 * Manages to obtain the trust of the community as a whole

My opinions on what a bad leader (admin or bureaucrat) would be like:


 * Is distant from, and/or doesn't care about, the community and/or the site


 * Doesn't listen to others


 * Is dishonest


 * Is authoritarian and/or negligent in his/her duties


 * Punishes people unfairly, and/or without just cause


 * Fails to obtain the trust of the community as a whole

Notice that I never mentioned how they needed to do a whole bunch of editing, including adding videos? That's because you can't always assume that some people would be more knowledgeable on this game than others.

When I 1st joined the Terraria Wiki, I had no idea as to what everyone was like, though as time went by, I started to feel as if Gracey91 was doing a good job as an admin (though it might be because, out of all of the other admins here, I've interacted with her the most), while the others, I felt, weren't as active within the community, though I felt that none of them did a bad job at least. This was all until what had happened recently.

Personally, I think that neither HeroGaming nor Gracey91 should be reinstated as admins or bureaucrats UNTIL they prove themselves worthy of being such in the eyes of the community.

While I myself wouldn't mind becoming an admin or bcrat myself, I personally feel as if I just lack the dedication to remain one for long. My activity within the site is sporadic at best; sometimes I'm inactive for up to a couple months, and at other times, I'm a lean, mean editing machine. Sadly, I have other things that I need, and/or want, to do than just spend my time editing stuff here, many of which are more important. If I'm demoted from admin or bcrat because of this, then I'm fine with it.

--Shadow Wolf TJC 23:10, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Honesty
Well I will say I was very close minded. I am also over protective of the wiki due to past relations with curse. I wasn't really in a good state of mind last week and was super paranoid of curse gaming so I won't really comment on what will make a good admin. I will however apologize for being so paranoid. Sorry for being so paranoid. That's about all my pride will allow me to muster at the moment. Have a good day.--HeroGaming 17:35, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

@Gracey: Questions About RFA (Mathmagician)
Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 23:42, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Gracey, you mention above that bureaucrats should pretty much be equal to admins (I almost entirely agree), but you didn't mention that in Wikipedia's Requests for Adminship process, the votes are tallied at the end and a final decision is made by a bureaucrat. How do you correlate these two things? If we were to use RFA here, who exactly would be tallying the votes, taking neutral stances into consideration, and making the final decision? -- a bureaucrat like in RFA, the rest of the administrators like I proposed, someone else? If a single bureaucrat has the authority to bring an RFA discussion to a close, how is a bureaucrat still equal to an admin?
 * Is RFA practical for our wiki? Given our community, I feel that most people would not contribute to the RFA process (lack of interest/maturity). To me, it seems more practical for us to let current administrators have a discussion and make a decision. I do believe the community should notified and allowed to have a say--but I have concerns that the full implementation of RFA in particular might be a little bit strict and not work well for this particular wiki.


 * I have previously used RFA's on ATW they call them RFR's but. They work very well and are quite simple to use, they allow all users to comment and it is 100% transparent. They also often help users as they get feedback on how people see them on the wiki, allowing them to grow and better themselves.


 * We would need to make a number of changes to implement it here, But i think the admins would do it and we could just require that the admin has the support of at least one other admin before they can give a finial decision. We could also only allow people to make them when we need a new admin so people aren't just wasting time trying to fill a position thats already filled.


 * Its pretty much what you are suggesting but it will just require the talks to be done on the wiki. I'm sure there may be some concern from users that this may allow complete nobodies/amateurs on the wiki to try to take over. To combat that we can simply use a difficult request process so only people with mediawiki skills will be able to make one. ATW have made one that seems to keep pretty much all the clowns off the wiki. I'm not so wrapped up in the exact details of how its done on wikipedia or other wikis i just think the basic concept is good and could be used here quite well. Mainly because only people who care will add input since they have to take the time to edit it and its very clear how users feel as messages are accompanied by either a support/neutral/oppose template and then comments can be added too.


 * Regarding having a discussion with the other admins about it, i don't think the current ones are active enough. So it would be basically just you(math) deciding, maybe with some input from port. But he isn't really active enough to have a good idea what the users are really like. Zenofire has pretty much left and Kiruwagaka is busy studying at uni and Dratini only stops in maybe once a month. Gracey91 (talk • contribs • count) 05:12, February 12, 2012 (UTC)

Mathmagician ( talk ♥ blog ) 05:59, February 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, I can see that working. With some appropriate changes to make RFA work here, that seems rather similar to what I was saying. Also, when it comes to what I said about admins having a discussion for picking admins--I was never intending to use that idea now. That was an idea for going forward, after the wiki is peaceful again. I realize that right now the admins are basically me and Port5 and so there wouldn't really be much of a discussion. It is obvious that the way in which we select admins at this point in time is going to be awkward... truthfully I'm not sure what the next step in this discussion will be.


 * Oh i see, with a full group of active admins that would work too. I believe the next step is Sannse will try to combine all the ideas together into a draft policy and we will move to focusing on more of the finer points of how it will work exactly. Gracey91 (talk • contribs • count) 06:04, February 12, 2012 (UTC)