Talk:Stardust armor

The Stardust Armor set effect is very clearly a JoJo's Bizarre Adventure reference. Stardust Guardian shares the same figure, color scheme, armor, and function as Star Platinum, and the part it's from is called Stardust Crusaders. Any other "references" are purely coincidental.

--24.14.214.236 19:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it looks anything like Star Platinum. It's likely a JoJo reference, but almost all of the stands and characters have exaggerated muscles. The official colouring of Star Platinum is unknown, and Araki probably doesn't even remember anymore. And the only similarities between the Guardian and Star Platinum are that they both have armoured shoulders. Laparapa (talk) 00:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I do think that saying it looks like Starplat is pretty false, but is almost 100% a reference, right down to being Stardust considering the Jotaro era is Stardust Crusaders. The look of the thing is that of a stand, it acts as one too. The fact that the reference listing in trivia was removed for being "unsourced" is a little strange, how exactly do you source references? Are we supposed to ask for a public statement of all pop culture references ever, no matter what? What do we do about the pages that have weird writings about references like the fact that Clothier says he's a Ladykiller and it says it MIGHT be a reference to The Ladykillers? Do we tweet @redigit and say "Hey red please confirm that you've put references in your game along with each and every reference so we can properly cite that on the wiki"? 64.4.93.62 20:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)


 * To be fair, sometimes it's better to leave out the theorising and just stick to what's known. Otherwise you could fill entire wiki articles with what "might be". That said, this armour seems like a pretty clear reference to JoJo, although not to any stand in particular. Laparapa (talk) 19:03, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * This is exactly the reason why we require verification for trivia claims. If "might be" was good enough reason for a note on the page, most pages would have bloated trivia sections longer than the page text- and there was a point where this was the case, which is why the policy is in place now.
 * To the above IP poster: yes, in order to source a piece of trivia, you are supposed to ask the developers for clarification. Asking them for a comprehensive list of every reference in the entire game seems daunting and overblown, but so is the task of proving every piece of trivia on the wiki, and realistically no user of sound mind would actually undertake this. What's much more simple and reasonable is to ask whether the trivia you're concerned with is true. It's not impossible- they've answered before and are routinely active on both the subreddit and the forums, as well as in streams and IRC. Getting confirmation of this sort is not an impossible task, and if your conviction to that point is strong enough to push you to argue similarities in a talk page, it's not that far a leap to put those same words in a PM to one (or more!) of the devs.
 * All that said, the level of disagreement both on this talk page and the main edit history put the claim that it's "obvious" and "undeniable" to rest. The Stardust Guardian only dubiously looks like Star Platinum in that it's a muscular figure with armor on, and the claim that it resembles the idea of a nonspecific Stand is flawed- the idea of guardian spirits that follow special people and fight alongside them originated centuries before JoJo, and plenty of franchises have similar ideas. Use of the word "stardust" is coincidental with the theming of the events and items surrounding it; if it were a one-off the case would be stronger, albeit still not grounds for inclusion on the page.
 * Trivia regarding references to popular culture require this level of moderation specifically because they cause this degree of confusion. Even if we were to allow trivia to try and appease people discontented with the policy, that would just invite people who believe it's actually referencing their favorite show instead to make the same removals and replacements. The simplest, and almost always most realistic, contention is that all claims of this sort are false until word from the creators can be presented to confirm one to be true. Gearzein (talk) 19:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
 * To honestly believe otherwise on the case that this is in fact a reference to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure is an absolutely heinous amount of purposeful disassociation. Many other pages have Trivia which references. Take the Breaker Blade, for instance. It's a very obvious reference to FF7 and to say otherwise would just be idiotic. The same is true here. If you really want to hold true to your own personal policy of "its not true until the devs say so" then go ahead. Remove every Trivia reference on the wiki. However I refuse to believe you truly do not see the correlation between this item and the "supposed" reference, and are only making a deal out of it for the sake of being contrarian.
 * Partial disclosure: whether or not I believe it's a JJBA reference is immaterial. I definitely believe that you believe that to be the case, and that your ability to make connections based on presupposition is much stronger than mine. I also believe that someone who would be so convinced of something that they would forego fulfilling a request for evidence in favor of personal attacks may perhaps be a little biased in their perception and, after reconsidering the way they conduct themselves, should also consider that the prevalence of certain themes and imagery in popular culture- let's call them tropes- can cause people with deep attachment to certain franchises to see what is ultimately not there. Funnily enough, no one making these claims ever says "I think it is, let's check into it" and actually gets it verified- they are always immediately and firmly convinced that it is absolutely, undeniably a reference to the thing they like, and that there is no need for proof of verification because anyone who doesn't see it is either stupid or lying. In reality, a few false positives and a narrow frame of reference can lead multiple groups to draw highly similar, very strong conclusions and insist that they are in fact the ones being catered to. It may shock you to learn that there is a non-zero chance that the developers haven't even seen JJBA to make reference to it.
 * Again, though, you're not going to convince the administration to see the error of their ways just by the harshness of your words. The case against was laid out as a matter of courtesy, but that wasn't meant to open the floor to discuss the veracity of these claims at length. They are taken as false until citation is provided. Gearzein (talk) 01:18, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
 * TBH I'd say that JoJo series introduced stands 30 years ago. With the series' popularity in Japan, others (Touhou or Kingdom Hearts, for instance) used some of its concepts, and they have become somewhat of tropes, as you say. Everyone loves their favourite series and wishes to prove that something is a reference to it, rather than being just a common trope. However it's JoJo that introduced the concept of a 'Stand'. And 'Stardust Crusaders' anime has been just recently aired. If it was just the guardian bonus, I'd agree with you, but the armor is named stardust not only because it comes from space.
 * Well, to prove myself I'll try to ask Red personally, on his twitter or forums profile page, whether he intended this as a reference or not. 88.156.132.9 14:46, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Damage
Someone should add damage calculations for the Stardust Guardian. (anonymous user)

Minions
Might be worth mentioning on the article whether or not the Guardian takes up a space for the amount of Minions that can be summoned. As I do not yet have this armour, I can't say for sure 107.77.70.28 06:21, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Reference
Somebody edited it to claim that it is more likely to be a deference to Persona than a reference to Stardust Crusaders despite the fact that it is literally called Stardust Armor. Can somebody edit it to be the other way around? (anonymous user)