Talk:Swords

Suggest that Swords redirect to Melee Weapons. Content describing different attack styles could be copied over. Vissith 18:33, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Only on rare occasions, I say no. I say no to this merge. There is a page for Hammers, Pickaxes, and Axes, swords are another type of those. Melee weapons include Staff of Regrowth and demonite items. We can put "See also Melee Weapons". But to be consistent this page needs to be named Swords. N u l l ( T - C ) 05:02, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't make sense to merge, while swords are melee weapons, not all melee weapons are swords. They deserve their own category/page.

Staff of regrowth
I say it isn't a sword. You could say it acts like an axe, if you're going there. Just add it to Melee Weapons and remove it from this classification. --JonTheMon 16:01, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It isn't a tool since it can't dismantle world tiles, and it isn't a spear since it doesn't jab. It does cause damage to enemies via an overhead swing.How exactly is it not a broadsword, other than in its name?  Equazcion  ( talk ) 16:21, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * If they added a spiked club that swings overhead and doesn't dismantle world tiles, would that also be a sword? And I don't know of any swords that have a non-damage ability. --JonTheMon 16:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If they did that they'd probably add other similar items and we'd have another subcategory under melee for them. All the melee weapons fall under some other subcategory: tool, spear, shortsword, broadsword. Granted it's unique in that it has a non-attack function, but listings here are generally inclusive rather than exclusive; just because an item appears in one list doesn't mean it can't serve extra functions. One of the functions this one does serve, though, fits the broadsword description.  Equazcion ( talk ) 16:32, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Since when are listings so inclusive that you add something that doesn't make sense? It swings and does damage. Why not make a new classification for it? --JonTheMon 16:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, it swings, does damage to enemies, but does not dismantle world tiles. Such items are called broadswords, at least here; the Muaramasa and several others are not named so in the game, and some aren't even called swords. You could classify weapons based on their names and graphics, and end up with some significant changes to this wiki; but if you're going by function, this is a broadsword as much as any other is. Aside from its name and graphics, you've offered no real reason to exclude it here.  Equazcion ( talk ) 16:48, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * So the fact that it says it's a "Staff" doesn't matter? Anyhow, this isn't going anywhere w/o someone else commenting. --JonTheMon 16:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah that would be the "name" argument again. But yes let's see if anyone else has something to say.  Equazcion ( talk ) 16:55, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * I know we're waiting for outside input, but I wanted to point out one relevant example with the same issue: the Space Gun. It's a gun in appearance and name (ALSO listed under Guns, and I would have no problem with the Staff being listed somewhere else in addition), but is still included under Magic Weapons purely due to the way it functions: it consumes Mana rather than ammunition. Nothing in its superficial characteristics (name, appearance) point to it being a magic weapon, just as nothing superficial about the Staff of Regrowth points to it being a Broadsword. But since information purposes are best served here by classifying based on functionality, it's included under Magic Weapons.  Equazcion ( talk ) 18:14, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)

So I'm the tie breaker here or whatever? Well, I'm going to go with "unique melee weapon, not a sword", since it's called a staff and I don't see no blade. If it quacks like a duck, but doesn't look like one, then it probably isn't a duck. Sword, I mean. --Lunboks 18:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * How bout the Space Gun then? Should we move that out of Magic Weapons? Why or why not?  Equazcion ( talk ) 18:31, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it uses mana. That's kind of how the game decided whether a weapon is magic or not until 1.0.6. Now, each weapon is, internally, individually categorized, and the Space Gun is&hellip; still a magic weapon. The tooltip says "17 magic damage". It doesn't really count as a gun; it doesn't do ranged damage, and the Arms Dealer won't acknowledge it with showing up. --Lunboks 18:43, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict, response to Lunboks): Right, its underlying functionality makes it a magic weapon. It doesn't look ("quack") like a Magic Weapon though. I see nothing particularly magical about it. It just looks like a futuristic gun, and is even named as such. Why list it under Magic Weapons if it quacks like something else?  Equazcion ( talk ) 18:50, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Because magic is one of the three big categories that actually have an impact on something. Whether you could call the Staff of Regrowth a sword -- who cares? It's a melee weapon and does melee damage. Likewise, the Space Gun is a magic weapon and does magic damage, and that's a fact. If I chug a Magic Power Potion, it's going to do more damage. --Lunboks 18:57, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Broadsword" weapons also have a significant difference from other weapons in the way they're wielded. To categorize them as something else suggests that there's a functional difference that excludes it from the broadsword's swung-overhead nature. I don't think the reason we categorize broadswords in a list this way is merely to note their similar appearance -- it's to list all items that attack in the same manner. How does it serve readers to do otherwise?  Equazcion ( talk ) 19:01, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * So people are gonna think "hey, it's not a broadsword, then why is it swinging overhead to damage"? --JonTheMon 19:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's so that when people want to know what a weapon does before acquiring it, they can get an ideal picture. That's one of the functions of these lists, aside from the fun of putting up pretty pictures of things that look alike. If they know a weapon is a broadsword, one of which they're likely to have already encountered, they will know how it functions.  Equazcion ( talk ) 20:05, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * So they go to the Staff of Regrowth page and it tells them it's a swinging motion similar to a broadsword. --JonTheMon 20:10, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, just like if they go to any other item of any other category they can find a verbal description rather than categories and listings. The categories and listings make it easier to find items that have these things in common though, which is why they're there -- again, not just to group similar names and graphics.  Equazcion ( talk ) 20:15, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * So because broadswords cover almost all of the "melee weapons with swinging motion" we have to make all weapons that fall under that "swords"? We can't just leave it under the former categorization? --JonTheMon 21:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if there were more melee swinging weapons then we could simply rethink the "swords" page title or create a separate grouping, but as I said it makes no sense rethink a whole page title or create another grouping for this one item merely due to its dissimilar appearance. It doesn't constitute a significant game aspect. There was no former categorization, as far as I'm aware; at least not in terms of a wiki page listing. Again lists are inclusive so it can be under any page where it fits, this one included; and if you can think of others it applies to then feel free -- I'm not saying it "can't" be somewhere, I'm saying it can be here.  Equazcion ( talk ) 21:46, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)


 * @the Staff of Regrowth conversation: If we're going for categorising them, I'd say base it on attack style. There would be swinging (Muramasa, Staff of Regrowth), stabbing (shortswords), lancing (Dark Lance, Trident), and flail(ing) (Sunfury). The page Swords would show weapons which are technically swords (in appearance). This way, functionality and technicality would be fulfilled. &bull; iLiaWneK &bull; T &bull; C &bull; 18:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It might be a little confusing and invite frequent edits to "fix" the inconsistency if the categories and page listings don't match up. Perhaps the "Swords" page could be renamed to "Swinging weapons", but I think that would be less intuitive to readers.  Equazcion ( talk ) 18:55, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Vissith, should Swords redirect to Melee Weapons Turner 19:04, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Who's Vissith? I think it's still valuable to subcategorize the melee weapons, but it should be done based on function, not on appearance, just like everything else already is. I'm not sure why it should be different here. The fact that this item doesn't look like a sword is bothering certain people for some reason. It fits the wiki's standard for swords, which is the easiest way to refer to the grouping because it predominately consists of "swords". So one of them doesn't look like one -- is this really such a big deal? Do we need to create a separate list for this one item because it looks different, despite its identical attack style? (rhetorical question)  Equazcion ( talk ) 20:39, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Sword isn't just a functional category, it's also based on appearance. Would it make you happy if we added a column to Melee Weapons that defined what kind of melee attack it was? --JonTheMon 21:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ...as are the Gun and Magic Weapon lists, but since lists are inclusive of function and appearance rather than exclusive of one or the other, the Space Gun appears in both -- as the Staff should similarly be included here for the same reason. And that column already exists there but thanks for the thought; it still does not dissuade the argument for having it here.  Equazcion ( talk ) 21:39, 18 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Magic weapon is a simple "does it use magic" and gun is "does it look like a gun and fire like a gun". There isn't any confusion there. Sword is "does it look and act like a sword". If you're gonna take away the "look" part, might as well just have melee weapons w/o any other categorization. But we do categorize by appearance, so the staff doesn't belong here. --JonTheMon 15:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be some confusion regarding Space Gun, since it looks like a gun and fires like a gun but the game doesn't consider it a gun. We do categorize by both function and appearance, it would seem, so the staff does indeed belong here.  Equazcion ( talk ) 15:16, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * The function of the staff is not just swinging: it's main (arguably) function is as a magic item that makes grass; nothing to do with damage or swinging. --JonTheMon 15:30, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That's speculation :) And a hearty helping of it, at that.  Equazcion ( talk ) 15:38, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's take a look at the attributes of the staff and compare them to swords/broadswords And how is saying what it can do speculation? The priority of functions might be questionable, but it is arguable that the damage is a secondary effect at this point. Before the nerf it was definitely more questionable. --JonTheMon 15:45, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


 * So your point is both arguable and questionable? I'd have to agree. As far as where the speculation comes in, it's when you make a claim regarding what it "mainly" does, a speculation regarding priority which, in your words is quite questionable and entirely speculative. Even if that weren't speculation, I'm again not claiming it doesn't do other things and can't possibly fit other roles. It belongs here as well, though, as it fits this one.


 * The bottom line is that categorizing by function serves an actual purpose and makes this wiki more useful to readers. From a documentation standpoint, the point of categorization is not to group things that look alike. That doesn't serve people looking for real information on how to play the game. We make certain allowances for fan cruft because it's a game site and there's going to be a degree of that, as putting something called a gun in the gun category even though it's not actually a gun in the game. If we're going to categorize inclusively by appearance and function then so be it, but certainly not exclusively the former. Taking the more scientific approach is what separates this site from a mere run-of-the-mill fan club that makes lists of stuff merely so that people can brag they have "all the swords, see?" without having to have this ugly "staff" thing in their view. This is documentation, the "official" wiki, and should rise above that sort of superficial inclination. <font face="Century Gothic"> Equazcion ( talk ) 16:03, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)

Expanding the stats
I've added 4 more columns to the table, for Reach, knockback, speed, and use time. I filled them with placeholder ?'s to start and am gathering the numbers from the individual sword pages. However these are incomplete and I'm not sure how accurate. In particular, most swords list a use time of 100, but a few (for example iron broadsword) list a far lower number (21 in this case); surely either the 100s or the shorter numbers must be wrong (I'm now leaning toward the 100 must be wrong if most cases). (Did the way use time is measured change at one point?) I've listed these use times anyway, because it makes it obvious how messed up they are and may motivate someone with the means to do accurate measurements to clean them up.

I'm not yet sure how to measure reach, but perhaps in blocks.

"Speed" is meant to measure the same thing as use time, but in the broad terms that appear in the game ("slow", "very slow"). I think this is nice to have for comparison. I've add the ones I can check right now in my game, and they help make clear how innacurate the use time numbers from the individual pages must be (swords the game calls "average", "fast", and "very fast" are all listed with 100 use times. --Ericjs 02:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Use Time isn't exactly calculated, it's a value taken directly from the source code, and it wasn't taken correctly for many items. The Wood Sword, for instance, actually has a Use Time of 10. I've encountered a lot of inaccuracies here in that regard. I'll fix them as I notice them. I'm not quite sure how to express or measure "Reach" but it's something I've pondered myself as it would be a very useful statistic here. You could use pixel size of the resource images I guess, and form some value that way. I think the images on the wiki are taken from those directly? Can anyone confirm? <font face="Century Gothic"> Equazcion ( talk ) 02:12, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok my mistake, I was lookign at the Wood item. The Wooden Sword doesn't actually have a Use Time value. Maybe it can be used immediately even before it's done swinging? Not sure I have to test. Any way the rest is still true :) <font face="Century Gothic"> Equazcion ( talk ) 02:16, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * We could just categorize them as average, long ,very long, at least until we come up with real measurement for Reach.--Ericjs 02:19, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me :) <font face="Century Gothic"> Equazcion ( talk ) 02:24, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)
 * PS. I just realized what I said about the resource images didn't make any sense, since the uploaded images are of course the images that appear in the inventory rather than those used for the animation. I must be losing it. Anyway I added the missing Reaches; I actually don't have a Fiery Greatsword or Blade of Grass right now but I made educated guesses from memory and used existing comparisons expressed on the sword pages. Someone will correct them if they're wrong I'm sure. <font face="Century Gothic"> Equazcion ( talk ) 02:52, 19 Aug 2011 (UTC)