Talk:Goblin Warlock

Is the Goblin Summoner a Boss?
Message from InfiniteMarioMaster

Hey, I got your message, and let me tell you that the Goblin Summoner is considered a boss for the Goblin Army because of these reasons...


 * The Goblin Summoner is the only enemy that shows up in the Goblin Army on Hardmode.
 * She spawns only once which is at the end of the event.
 * Her max life is 2000 which is the same as The King Slime.
 * She drops a lot of diffrent items that the other enemies don't which include new weapons.
 * People have been mentioning that the Goblin Summoner is the boss of the Goblin Army on any Terraria videos about the Summoner.

So please stop removing my edits, and if you don't believe me, find any videos about the Goblin Summoner and it will say.
 * Goblin Summoner drops a banner, whereas characters intended as bosses or mini-bosses tend to drop trophies. I could list other arguments, such as size and lack or multiple parts or forms, but I think the former is the major determining factor. It being Hardmode-only is not a factor, since we have many Hardmode-only enemies that aren't bosses. The same goes for the health -- the developers have explicitly stated the Wyvern isn't a mini-boss, and that one has 4000 (Martian Walker and Nailhead, similar). It doesn't matter much that you've seen people refer to it as a boss; that's basically no argument. Equazcion  ( talk ) 16:33, 21 Jul 2015 (UTC)
 * To add to this, multiple Summoners can spawn during an event, and at any point- I've had to fight up to five in a single invasion, all less than halfway into it, so it's not unique by any means. Plenty of enemies drop unique weapons during Hardmode as well, but I'd never classify an Angry Trapper as a boss.
 * It's also super disingenuous to claim it's a boss based on its HP when your point of comparison is an optional boss avaialable before the one the game considers the "first". Those same videos you point to for evidence also pushed the once popular claim that King Slime isn't actually a boss anyway. The community's opinion isn't where to look for information. Gearzein (talk) 16:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply from InfiniteMarioMaster,

Even though Goblin Summoner doesent drop a trophy, I not sure why, but the Goblin Summoner would still be considered a boss because here's an example, Lepus and Turkor the Ungrateful are bosses and they don't drop trophies, but they're still considered bosses, and none of the celestial pillars drop trophies and even they are considered bosses. Even though there are other enimie a with more health, it's only cause Goblin Summoner is considered a mini boss.

Another reason cause I heard that they would be adding mini bosses for the goblin army, pirate invasion, and the new Martian madness, and if the goblin summoner is the only enemie added in the goblin army, then that makes him the boss. So I'm not trying to make this an argument, I'm just trying to tell show you that the goblin summoner is a boss. So this kinda makes this a conversation. (8:03 am, 22 July 2015)


 * Turkor and Lepus are mobile-exclusive characters that 505 Games came up with, rather than the PC developer (Re-Logic), who introduced the Goblin Summoner -- The mobile developer may handle "bosses" differently. Re-Logic has so far been pretty consistent in giving trophies for "bosses". Turor and Lepus were also announced as bosses by 505 Games, so there was little question that they were to be considered bosses. The Pillars are questionable, but they do have 20,000 life, and it makes practical sense to consider them "bosses" for the purposes of the wiki regardless, so that players understand that the Pillars are the centerpieces of the Lunar Events and that defeating them is their main objective.


 * None of these apply to the Goblin Summoner. It's a small character, without multiple parts or forms, it drops a banner not a trophy, it wasn't announced by the staff as a boss (that I'm aware of), and there's no practical reason to refer to it as a boss. Plus its health and damage are only about as high as other major Hardmode non-boss characters (Paladin, Wyvern, Martian Walker, special Mimics, Nailhead...). Equazcion  ( talk ) 12:30, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Reply from InfiniteMarioMaster,

Even though Goblin Summoner has the same health as the other enemies you mentioned, those are tough enemies. Even through Lepus and Turkor the Ungrateful are mobile, that's not the reason they don't drop a trophy. Cause Ocram is Consile and Mobile exclusive and he drops a trophy, and Duke Fishron is Pc exclusive and he also drops a trophy. Even though the Pillars are required to fight, they are still considered bosses. The Goblin Summoner is the boss of the Goblin Army cause the bosses are always the strongest, plus they added bosses for the Pirate Invasion (The Flying Dutchman) and for the Martian Madness (The Martian Saucer), and if there are bosses for that, then there is one for the Goblin Army, I'm not sure why Goblin Summoner doesent drop a trophy, but maybe it's cause they forgot or couldn't find one good enough. I mean just look up videos about the Goblin Summoner and the answer will be right there. (9:46 am, 22 July 2015)
 * I believe I've responded to all these points so I won't go 'round again. But as for videos, those are made by fans, and don't represent the conclusive "answer" we would necessarily abide by here. Equazcion  ( talk ) 13:51, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Reply from InfiniteMarioMaster

They may be fans, but if you're here on the Terraria wiki, then it technically makes you a fan, and me. But there is another mentioning that they did show the Goblin Summoner on the Terraria 1.3 trailer. (10:15 am, 22 July 2015)


 * True enough, we're all fans. And I'm not saying my opinion is any more valuable than the next fan's -- only that theirs isn't more valid than ours just 'cause they made a video. Although I might say that making these determinations with a promoted video in mind, versus making them with documentation in mind, can produce different results. Youtubers don't need to worry quite as much about consistency across the entirety of game info, and, it can benefit a video to sensationalize things. At the wiki, we need to deal much more with the consequences of any inconsistency, especially considering that anyone can edit. Letting the Goblin Summoner be called a "boss" would probably invite the same at the more powerful enemies not currently labeled that way (Paladin etc.). Equazcion  ( talk ) 14:30, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Reply from IMM (InfiniteMarioMaster)

True, the only thing is that making page is pretty easy to do, and you can easily edit it, but making videos is a little more harder, and the only thing you can change is the title. Now I think the Goblin Summoner only has 2000 health cause the Goblin Army is a Pre-Hardmode event and you only have acsess to do it by breaking at least one shadow orb or one crimson heart. The other event bosses only have more health cause the events are more difficult. (11:44 am, 22 July 2015)
 * It only appears in Hardmode though, so its low HP compared to other hardmode enemies doesn't make any sense by that logic. It also doesn't get unique music or announcement text that " has awoken!" like every other boss does- even King Slime, which is part of why we consider it a boss now, but not Paladins, Wyverns or Ice Golems, all of which are more difficult and have much more health than it does. Relative strength is not the marker of a boss. Were that the case, the first several bosses would all be dwarfed in nearly every statistic by Wyverns, a regular enemy in Hardmode.
 * You haven't really presented any new arguments, and we've addressed all of the ones you've brought up previously- not that this was a debate- so I'm going to have to ask that you cooperate. In the end, there are too many reasons that those videos are invalid sources for decision making. Goblin Summoner has no traits of a boss, and believing that it is one "even though" there's strong evidence against is fine, but editing the wiki to reflect that opinion is not. Gearzein (talk) 16:00, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Ditto on the Hardmode point. Wyverns, Ice Golems, and Nailheads are likely to be encountered much earlier and have much more health. And how "hard" or "easy" it is to wiki-edit (some of us do quite a bit more than type the text you see, fyi) vs. produce a game video is pretty irrelevant, to say the least. As it stands, I do think the status quo is going to have to suffice, at least for now. Equazcion  ( talk ) 16:19, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Reply from IMM

It doesent say that because Goblin Summoner is an event boss, and it's not just that, it also doesent say for the Flying Dutchman nor the Martain Saucer, cause they are also event bosses. (12:27 am, 22 July, 2015)
 * ...but again, those have other traits that would offer cause to consider them bosses (or mini-bosses). The Goblin Summoner does not -- aside from it being the strongest in the Goblin Invasion, which alone hasn't been considered much of a "boss" characteristic generally. If it were, Mothron and even the Clown would have also been considered "bosses". Events just tend to have an enemy or two that are significantly stronger than the rest. It takes more specific attributes to call something a "boss". Equazcion  ( talk ) 16:42, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)

Reply from IMM

Those enemies are regular and I doubt they drop anything diffrent. The Goblin Summoner is pretty much a boss, cause he was the only enemie added in the Goblin Army, and they did say they add a mini boss for the Goblin Army, just like for the Pirate Invasion, the Flying Dutchman was the only enemie added for that which makes him the Pirate Invasion boss! (1:11 pm, 22 July 2015)
 * Flying Dutchman is referred to that way for its multiple parts, size, high health/damage, and dropped trophy... Just because it happens to be the only one added to that event, another event with a single added enemy must then also be a boss, even though it has none of those characteristics? That's a really shaky assumption to resort to... and Mothron does drop the Mothron Wings and The Eye of Cthulhu, which are unique to him. Equazcion  ( talk ) 17:21, 22 Jul 2015 (UTC)
 * Not only do both of those enemies have unique drops, but so do all other enemies mentioned here. I fail to see what makes them "regular" enough by comparison to classify the Summoner as relatively irregular, unless the crux of your argument is arbitrary personal preference based on someone else's interpretation. Not matter how much work they went through, if the videos you're directing us to as proof of your point aren't familiar enough with the content to have made this evident, then their legitimacy as sources of information is doubtful at best.
 * Many events have unique enemies, but that doesn't make them bosses, that makes them part of the event. I'd hesitate to call the Flying Dutchman a boss, but even it drops a trophy, and that's just barely enough to bring it into question- a "just barely" that the Summoner lacks. Gearzein (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply from IMM,

That's the problem, it's not just the Mothron that drops unique items in the solar eclipse, all the other enemies in the event drop unique ites, like the swamp things and Frankensteins drop broken hero swords, and the vampires drop the moon stone, and the reapers drop death sickles, and the eyeszors drop (I forget what). The Goblin Summoner is the only enemie in the Goblin Army that drops unique items, and like I said, he only show ups once in the Goblin Army, which makes him a boss, even though other bosses show up more than once, but the King Slime shows up once in the slime rain event (I think), but it's not just youtubers that are agreeing with me, everybody is saying that the Goblin Summoner is a boss, probably Red and everyone else in Re-Logic would be saying the same thing, if he was the only enemie in the goblin army added and if they said that they be adding a boss to the goblin army, then it pretty much makes him a boss. Even though the Mothron was the only enemy added in the Solar Eclipse, they said nothing about a solar eclipse boss, they only said new enemies would be added in the solar eclipse (even though it was just one). The Flying Dutchman has a lot of health cause the pirate invasion is a Hardmode event, the Goblin Army is a Pre-Hardmode and it would be upgraded right away, so they couldn't make him too hard too early.
 * If it's true that "everyone" is saying it, how is it the case that you're the only one trying to make this edit? Even if your constant insistence that "everyone" agrees with you were valid determinant of fact (it's not) it doesn't appear to be true in the first place.
 * Aside from that, you're just repeating yourself over and over again. You don't seem to have any actual evidence, and we've explained why you're wrong more than sufficiently, so I'm going to have to ask you again to end this discussion, and not make these edits in the future. Gearzein (talk) 18:42, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Reply from IMM,

Okay now you've gone too far!! You're the one who's wrong, nobody else but me is making the edit cause they probably don't care, or they don't pay attention to the page!! You're also repeating yourself!! Everyone does agree with me cause I've seen them with the same answer on youtube, other pages, and everywhere else, I could ask re-logic right now and they'll say yes!! Just stop undoing my edits cause I'm the one here who's right!! This is literally getting out of hand I mean seriously, Just cut the crap already!!! You're the only one who disaggrees!! Just agree with me here already, oh and I already gave freaking evidence, the only evidence you have was that she doesent drop a trophy, well that was probably a mistake!!
 * In terms of content creation, a banner and a trophy take roughly the same amount of work. It is not an omission but a replacement. Such a "mistake" would require a deliberate effort on behalf of both programmers and artists, meaning that they not only took no measure to distinguish it as a boss but "mistakenly" gave it traits to explicitly codify it as an ordinary, albeit relatively uncommon, enemy. Consider especially the mechanical changes to banners in considering whether the choice to have the Goblin Sorceror give one out is a "mistake".
 * Once again, however, this is not a point for debate. No amount of vitriol on your part will change the facts, and "just agree with me because I'm right" has never been and never will be a valid point. If you lash out like this again then I'll have no choice but to take action. Gearzein (talk) 22:20, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

New comments
A few editors, including myself, got into a lively debate regarding whether the Goblin Summoner should be declared a boss, or mini-boss, in its article. The arguments boiled down to the following:


 * The Goblin Summoner was the only hard enemy added to the Goblin Invasion in 1.3, so like the Flying Dutchman, it should be considered a "boss" or "mini-boss". It also drops several unique/powerful items. Several Youtube videos refer to it as a boss.
 * The Goblin Summoner's design doesn't offer any traditional clues to it being boss-like, such as a Trophy (it drops a Banner instead), spawn/death messages, large size, multiple parts or forms, or astronomical health/damage; so it shouldn't be referred to as a "boss" or "mini-boss".

If anyone has any opinion that might add clarity to this topic please feel free to post them below. Thanks! Equazcion ( talk ) 23:37, 23 Jul 2015 (UTC)
 * The 1.3 changelog refers the to Goblin Summoner as a "mini-boss enemy" and refers to the Flying Dutchman as a "mini-boss". I think the description fits what the summoner is; a tough enemy akin to the large Mimics or Mothron, that isn't quite at boss threshold. The argument "She only spawns once, at the end of the event" is also completely false; I've beaten up to three over the course of a single event. –KM100 (talk) 23:57, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I guess that settles that then -- It is in the changelog: "The Goblin Invasion event has been graphically updated and will have a new mini boss enemy in Hardmode." I hadn't noticed that before (despite my text searches, for some reason). Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:01, 24 Jul 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless someone has any other points to bring I'll update the article soon. Thanks KM100. Equazcion  ( talk ) 00:03, 24 Jul 2015 (UTC)
 * My real concern is what we will consider mini-bosses. There are many enemies that could be considered mini-bosses (e.g. Ice Golem according to the 1.2 patch notes), and if we drop the criteria of the enemy having to drop a Trophy this could turn into a mess. Aside from that it may be an idea to split the boss page into real bosses (those that have the "this.boss = true;" in the source code) and mini-bosses (such as the event bosses, pillars, etc). The boss page is getting rather long, even without possible mini-bosses --0icke0 (talk) 10:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Why did you say Goblin Sorcerer Gearzin? Also the mistake was probably made because all the goblins including the Goblin Summoner look exactly the same, so Red must have accedentally made a banner for Goblin Summoner instead of a trophy, and every second you keep involving other enemies that aren't even bosses but that are sorta similar, the other enemies I involve are other bosses.

The Goblin Summoner would also have to be a boss because he is similar to other bosses, like shes similar to the King Slime in 2 diffrent ways, that they both show at the end if an event and have 2000 health. She is also similar to Lepus and Turkor cause they don't drop trophies either. And at least for now, she is similar to Duke Fishron cause they're both Pc exclusive. That is another point I got there, oh and somebody else left evidence to how she is a boss on the other talk. InfiniteMarioMaster (Talk) (7:31 am, 24 July 2015) (UTC)