User talk:Bame66

Hey!
Hi and thank you for your contributions to the wiki! Edits like yours are very much appreciated. Since you have been involved in the recent discussion about Guide:Class setups, I would like to invite you to the Terraria Wiki Discord server: https://discord.gg/zZGmGqk. Discord facilitates animated discussions, so we can reach a consensus about this page sooner. Thank you again for your commitment and hopefully see you on the Discord! --Rye Greenwood (talk) 23:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

regarding Chlorophyte Ore and Crystals in "Gardening", there was a split request.
The "Renewable resources" guide already had a split request for chlorophyte, IMO reasonably so: Most of that guide simply listed what resources were renewable or not, with at most a brief mention of how they could be farmed... and then there was that whole subsection about farming chlorophyte ore. (You might look at the talk page for background.) I put in crystals too because once chlorophyte's in, there's no reason crystals shouldn't be. --MentalMouse42 (talk) 11:02, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


 * You may have misunderstood the purpose of the split request (assuming this is the one you're talking about). It was about how non renewable resources should have their own page instead of staying in "Renewable Resources"; they weren't actually supposed to be split to Gardening, as that guide is better suited for Plants and Herbs.


 * I'm not sure why Chlorophyte was listed as Non-renewable though, so I can see why you got confused. Renewable Resources needs a lot of work at the moment, and Crystals and Chlorophyte are two of the main resources that people normally make farms for, so I think it's better to move your new sections to that guide instead.


 * Edit: I should also point out that the Non Renewable section was meant to be moved to a new guide, Guide:Farming, but that link happened to be a redirect to Guide:Gardening. That doesn't mean they were the same guide. Bame66 (talk) 11:24, 5 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It does look like I misinterpreted the split request, but what I saw was that most of the farming info had in fact been split to Gardening/Farming.  I found that reasonable, and considered the section on chlorophyte farming  obtrusive in the remaining page, so I figured I was finishing the job.
 * Splitting non-renewable from renewable resources would be arbitrary and annoying to the reader, basically they'd need to know beforehand whether something was renewable, before they could know which page to look for the info on. (I think the fact that the split languished for 3 months suggests that even the proposers weren't terribly enthusiastic about it.)  Chlorophyte is actually an excellent example of why the split would be problematic, being an edge case.  As the pages note, it's "almost unlimited", aka "nearly renewable", because its production consumes mud.  But while mud can be made from dirt, and both are plentiful... they still can't be created within a world, therefore non-renewable.
 * As it stands what we have is (1) an excellent page which discusses renewability and categorizes "all the stuff" as to whether or not it's renewable (and why) and (2) an excellent page on farming resources, now including the one that's technically not renewable but is still worth farming. So I'd say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  I'm torn as to whether going over to the item template with icons would actually be a good thing, which is why I haven't set out to do it myself.  --MentalMouse42 (talk) 22:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The biggest problem with Gardening right now is that the Chlorophyte and Crystal (and to an extent, bait) sections just seem out of place, since the guide looks like it was made for plants only.
 * But... not only are Plants renewable resources, they are also the easiest and most worthwhile to farm, so I think the best course of action here is to merge the two guide into one: Farming Resources. This will:
 * * Give a needed rework to Renewable Resources, giving a detailed guide on each resource that is worth farming.
 * * Fix the Non Renewable issue the guide currently has, without splitting it away, because as you mentioned it is better to keep everything in one page.
 * * Rework the Non Rewewable section itself, as right now most of it is just "This is some stuff you can find in a world"
 * The one issue with this is that the amount of images and tables in Gardening may end up cluttering the page, but i think that wouldn't be too hard to fix.
 * Any thoughts? Bame66 (talk) 23:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge them? To what end?  If it's just the name "Gardening" that bothers you, we could pull it back to the name "Farming" (making the redirect go the other way) It's certainly natural to speak of, e.g."farming crystals".  Indeed, the first sentence of the page reads "Gardening is the practice of intentionally spawning resources in a convenient area for harvest", which doesn't actually imply a plant.  I forget the syntax that subs in a page's actual name, but if the source was altered to use that, it wouldn't care what the page name is.  (ETA:  Found it, and made the change.  It's.
 * Now, I could see splitting out chlorophyte and crystal farming to separate pages, but they'd be pretty short pages, because neither is as complex as subject as the other Farming-category guides. It might be better to put the respective sections back into the resource pages as sections there, with redirects, e.g. "Farming Crystals" and Crystal Farming would both redirect to "Crystal shards#Farming crystals"... but then they wouldn't be in guidespace anymore.  But, "Renewable resources" and Gardening by whatever name are naturally different pages.  One is a reference page, providing information about game resources.  Tthe other is an instructional page teaching how to farm certain resources.
 * And... looking back at the page, I see you appear to have renamed the wrong page! The page (formerly known as) "Renewable resources" page had perhaps a sentence or link for each farmable resource -- it's focus is in fact listing and distinguishing both the renewable and non-renewable things.  Renaming that one to "Farming resources" is just baffling.  If anything, the "Gardening" page has the better right to that name, except that there's also the matter of the Guide infobox, which has these and other pages under a category of "Farming".
 * At this point, my inclination is:
 * Move the page about renewability to simply "Renewability", thus squelching arguments about "oh, it's discussing non-renewable resources too, horrors!". ;-)  I'm going to do that now, and update the infobox to match.
 * That leaves the question of where to put chlorophyte and crystal farming. At this point, I'd be fine with giving them their own pages, short as they may be.
 * If the previous end up/stay as sections, they should get redirects.
 * Put a disambiguation page at "Farming", listing the various pages in that infobox category, including the new pages/redirects.
 * --MentalMouse42 (talk) 01:24, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually, we agreed in the Discord to merge both Gardening and Renewable resources to one page. I didn't have time to finish the "new" guide yesterday which is why you can only saw the rename.
 * Basically, the reasons for the merge are:
 * * The concept of a "Non renewable resource" is simply pointless in Terraria, since you'd have to be extremely dedicated to even run low in a resource in a world.
 * * Even if you somehow exhausted a resource, you can simply make another world for it, something the Renewable Resources guide itself mentioned at the beginning.
 * * Gardening was always meant to simply focus on plants, hence the name "Gardening". But there is really no reason to separate Plants from other renewable resources.
 * * The "Renewable Resources" was already in need of a rework.
 * Once again i think you didn't understand what the point of "Guide:Gardening" and "Guide:Farming" was; one was meant for growing plants in a garden, while the other would've been the "Non renewable" section of Renewable resources. I think the fact that Guide:Farming (a page that doesn't actually exist) redirected to Gardening may have confused you.
 * The old idea of splitting Renewable Resources was scrapped and now we will focus on just "Farming Resources". The whole "Non Renewable section" will probably be mostly gone since as i mentioned above, the concept of Renewable resources is simply worthless to talk about in detail. Bame66 (talk) 10:40, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm popping the indents back out, because that was getting out of hand. --MentalMouse42 (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
 * "We agreed on the Discord"? Who's "we"?  I don't follow the Discord, and I haven't seen any sign of recent discussion in the pages of this wiki. If you had taken some time to invite me to a discord discussion, I might have been able to join in, but I would not assume that Discord is part of how things are decided on a wiki.
 * Just to be clear, from my point of view, I came back after an absence and tried to improve a page which had a 3-month old split request; you responded initially with reasonable criticism, but then you went on to immediately rearrange pages, including completely redefining the page I was working on all without on-wiki discussion.  I've been working on various wikis for a decade, so I know something about wiki etiquette, and let me tell you, that's kinda rude!
 * Bluntly, when I came to it a couple of days ago, much less when I was working on it in 2017 and 2018, "Renewable Resources" was not "a guide to farming resources".
 * I had just reworked the Renewable Resources section to be a much cleaner summary, without all the tiny sections. I've rescued the resulting page into my sandbox. User:MentalMouse42/Sandbox/Renewability.
 * Non-renewability is hardly pointless -- not everybody wants to be a world-hopper. While landscape blocks may be plentiful, this is not true of items from location-specific structures and chests.  In particular, many players do want to know which items may not be replaceable, for example if they are making a trophy/collection room.
 * I can certainly get behind a combined page for farming resources. I will look at your work and consider it when I've had time to calm down.  I'll agree that a listing of non-renewable stuff has little place in a guide to farming resources, but again, I think it's a useful wiki resource in its own right.


 * Yeah, sorry, that was very rude of me. I basically ignored you when i merged the guides. I didn't actually remove the Non renewable section, i realized halfway through the edit that it was very worth keeping. The only part that was removed was the very long list of all chest drops, since that didn't feel too important for the guide.


 * The guide wasn't actually rewritten like i said it would've been, in fact it remains mostly the same; the main change was that a kinda big part of the renewable section was replaced with the farms from the Gardening guide, and that's only because Gardening had better and more detailed info on those parts. It's still divided in three sections: Renewable, Practically unlimited and Limited. This way, you can organize each resource depending on its renewability, and also detail methods of farming the renewables in the same place. Redirecting constantly to Gardening would be kinda annoying for the reader, don't you think?


 * Your edits to the old Renewable resources guide were a step forward towards making the page better, however they didn't help with the main issue of it: A guide that only details which resources are renewable or not isn't very helpful for a game where even the "non renewable" resources are practically unlimited. For example even the Hive blocks are hard to deplete, and those are part of the most limited blocks in a world.


 * Again, i'm really sorry for literally ignoring you on the decision, and for making it sound like i was going to change everything.


 * P.S i think that Discord invite that Rye left first in the Talk section should work for you, otherwise i don't really know how to invite you. Bame66 (talk) 14:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Coming back after a proper breakfast: Apology accepted!  We all step on someone's toes sometimes, being able to apologize makes the difference.  Looking at the new page, it does look pretty good.  I can see a couple of places where it lost information, but I'll edit those in and/or take them to the page's talk.  For non-renewable items, while your summary is good for that page, I think the list of individual items is worth a new page, specifically so players can find out what items are irreplaceable.  I'll work on that.  --MentalMouse42 (talk) 14:34, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * It's a problem i have, really. It's the second time i cause an issue like this in this wiki :P


 * I have readded a couple things from "your" page back, and tbh the chest item list doesn't actually sound that unnecessary. If you add that part back i wouldn't object.


 * Next time i'll try to make sure that *everyone* involved with a page discussion agrees with a decision i'm about to make. Bame66 (talk) 14:54, 7 July 2019 (UTC)