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Sannse (Staff)

Hi Everyone.

So this wiki has been going through some difficult times. What I would like to try to do is to have a public and full discussion on a few of the issues. It's not clear yet that all involved will be willing to participate, but I will be unbanning and Gracey91 and Mathmagician to allow them to join this discussion.

Generally, staff try not to get involved in every wiki dispute. It's important that each community controls it's own day-to-day management, and works out the best way for their unique community to interact and work together. But it seems this dispute is one that needs a bit more help, and my aim here is to facilitate the discussion and try to help make it a productive, useful, and successful one. And, importantly, to try and help this not escalate further and affect everyone's enjoyment of the wiki.

From what I'm hearing, there are a couple of areas we need to talk about. One question is how videos are handled on the wiki. At the moment, HeroGaming is the "Video Admin" and organizes which videos should be on the site. Some here feel the selection of videos should be more open while others are fine with the current arrangement. This is something that will need to be discussed by the community, but isn't really the key issue right now.

What we need to work out at the moment, is:

  • What exactly are the areas of disagreement between HeroGaming and Mathmagician and Gracy?
  • What has been happening both on and off wiki to trigger this problem?
  • How can we resolve the disagreement and bring calm back to the wiki?
  • Should Mathmagician and Gracy's rights should be replaced?

One aspect of this is that I would like to hear from editing users of this wiki (and, in particular and Gracy, HeroGaming and Mathmagician). I would say that the reading/viewing users (in particular those who follow HeroGaming on YouTube) have had their say, let's hear from the editors now.

I realize that some of you may be concerned that speaking frankly may be difficult in the current situation, but it really will help to hear from you. If you only feel comfortable commenting logged out, that's OK, although I'll be giving more weight to comments that I can see come from regular contributors (if you are editing from an IP that you used logged in, I may be able see that you are an editor here - although I will not share IP or account information with others of course).

So, to start with, I would like to hear publicly from each side: what do you feel are the roots of this issue? What are the problems, and what have been the conversations so far, both here and off-wiki? (Off-wiki will be harder to look at, because incidents and conversations may not be provable - but I would like to know where elements of this dispute have happened).

Please, let's keep this as calm and civil as possible. I have to be on other wikis too, but will try to call in as much as possible to assist in this discussion.

Thanks all -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 21:46, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Whats really going on?

Whats really going on?

I believe I didn't fully understand what was going on until recently. Sannse, for a minute, take these few things into account that have happened. I belive that curse has offered to pay these admins and there real goal is to destroy the wiki.

  • Gracey starts talking about forwarding pages to another site for the purpose of making money. I say no he gets angry with me. (this was a steam conversation.)
  • Gracey wants to change the front page. I try working with him on it, but decide against it. Gracey responds by leaving the wiki altogether, but opts to vandalize the testing wiki first. here
  • Gracey starts working with terrariaonline here
  • The Terrariaonline head admin, who has offered both myself and the former bcrat money to trash our wiki, welcomes him. Here I think this was actually after their first contact. If you look here Happypal says “Don’t Let me down” why is he not wanting him to let him down? Why is happy involved in this situation? Why is the head admin of a competing wiki involved in the admin affairs of another wiki? Funny thing is if you check the talk of these two they didn’t come in contact with each other on terrarariaonline, our wiki, or the community wiki. He just shows up defending Gracey on your talk page as far as I can tell. There has been off wiki talk that isn’t documented. How did he even become aware? Why is Gracey thanking him for intervening? When did they really come into contact?
  • Math supports terrariaonline openly in this thread and wants to work with them after they have hacked our wiki tried to buy off several admins in the past. Terreriaonline which is owned by Curse is a direct competitor of both this site, and the wikia company. Why is he so adamantly supporting them?
  • Math wants to promote video editors who endlessly promote terraria online.
  • Terrariaonline’s Head B-Crat happypal comes to this thread and gives advice about how to "help our wiki." He is not just an admin he is a curse employee.
  • Months before this arguementhere on the last 2 comments you will see me arguing with on of the curse employees who has tried to buy of admins. His response is it happened off wiki so it doesnt matter. He completely brushes it off and says it was on terrariaonline like that makes it irrelevant.
  • He comes to your talk page to get an admin on an opposing wiki reinstated here Why? I mean really why is the admin of an opposing wiki contacting you about reinstating an admin on a competing wiki? What is his goal
  • You can find me arguing with a curse employee months before this ever came up here (Last 2 comments.) I accuse him of offering money to employees and he brushes it off like it doesn't matter because he did it off of the wiki.
  • Happypal is the reason we were hacked during patch 1.0.6 and has offered money to both myself and the former b-crat to trash our own site (again, their competition). The head admin from the competing wiki just happens to be hanging around and wants to help us huh? He also doesn’t want Gracey to let him down? How did he even get involved? I’ll tell you how. He was involved from the very start. This is an attack from curse gaming on wikia
  • We have been #1 in google for some time, but in the course of this argument we have lost our rank in a very short time.
  • We loose 2 admins who suddenly support this other wiki and want videos posted from users promoting the competing wiki?
  • Why have they caused all these problems? Why do they suddenly not want me backing the wiki? Why do they want to forward pages? Why is one of the head admins from a competing wiki even here? How did he get involved? What is really going on?

Accedent?

This is not an accident. I believe this was all an attack on wikia by curse through our command structure. I am firmly convinced this is what was really going on. Why else do we have 2 admins that are very pro terrariaonline all of the sudden? Why cause all this trouble? Why do they suddenly want to promote video editors that send traffic to terraria online? That’s because I drive traffic back to the wiki. Other major Terraria channels, ones they are pushing for, openly and regularly promote our competition and would drive traffic away from our site.

Why?

Given curse’s history of attempting to buy-off competitors, I strongly suspect the motive here was simply the promise of money through another site: a site which has tried to buy us off twice before. This was all an attack on the wiki from the competing wiki. It was under the promise of money that all this talk of forwarding pages happened to begin with. The intention is to ruin the wiki.

Urgency.

Sannse, I strongly urge you and the wikia staff to act decisively in this matter. It's all just too convenient, a “perfect storm” of events that has resulted in this wiki falling behind in search results. The community here has ALREADY spoken. Allowing these men to influence the wiki any longer will only invite more potential for corruption and slander as Math has admitted Gracey was doing with other admins. Let the votes stand. When a community speaks so overwhelmingly, a good leader listens.


Just ask yourself at what point did the competing wikis head admin get involved? Why did he contact you on Gracey’s behalf? When did the HEAD BCRAT of Terrariaonline happypal really become involved? Why all the sudden are we talking about posting youtubers videos where almost every video is plugging the other wiki? Why?

Say I'm wrong? Why do we still want admins that are openly wanting to send traffic away from the wiki and who make jokes about shooting staff? This whole thing has caused us to slip in rankings. Take these guys out of the picture and we will climb back up just as easily as we did before. This whole thing is a cancer to the wiki. Putting these admins back in place when we clearly don't get along would be bad news for the wiki --HeroGaming 11:40, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

HERO

Who are the admins we are dealing with?

  • Well gracey is someone who thinks he should get his way with a gun used on wikia staff. Check the link and on the 6th edit down he says someone should take a gun into wikia headquarters because he doesn't like the new message board feature.... Does anyone still really want him as admin? I will continue for the sake of completeness.
  • Mathman could have been a good admin had he not been corrupted by gracey's lies and came to me to ask for the truth. Rather than blindly following someone into rigging votes and whatever ponzi schemes they wanted to start in order to make fast cash.
  • also gracey has left the wiki yet again to go to this wiki http://wiki.terrariaonline.com/User_talk%3aGracey91 This is the second time and thinks an article full of lies about me is funny. Obviously me and him will never be able to work well together.
  • If you read his talk page it says that hes welcomed with open arms by who? happypal.... I havent done much investigation into whats actually going on in the convo but I will say happy has offered me and the former admin money to trash this wiki. funny that gracey should contact him the instant he goes to that wiki.
  • here is a quote from him on that wiki. "i plan to use this wiki from now on i just have to get use to how things are done here. I think this wiki suits my style a bit more, i like the structure of the wiki and fact its not full of little kids." so if he wants to use that wiki, likes it better, and doenst like kids on this wiki then let him go to the other wiki. (avearage age of a terraria player is 15.) We dont need an admin that jokes about shooting staff and threatens to destroy the wiki while saying he doesnt like the wiki because of the fact that very young people use the wiki.
  • My biggest problem with math at the moment is his stance on wanting to promote terrariaonline the competing wiki. Both youtubers who he is pushing have added to the wiki video pool link terrariaonline all the time in videos and in descriptions of videos. He is pushing to the point that I feel like he has ulterior motives. He also thinks we should be friendly with them. Which is garbage after they hacked our wiki tried to buy off several admins. My blood boils thinking about becoming their backlink.
  • We will never be sending our traffic to terraria online or posting videos of youtubers who are telling people to go there. This wiki is for profit for wikia. We aren't sending business to competing wikis. If you want to support this wiki you support it not its competitor.
  • I don't think either of them have the wikis best interest at heart at all.

What exactly are the areas of disagreement between HeroGaming and Mathmagician and Gracy?

  • Attempts to make money using the wiki.
  • Lies told to other members to try and make it look like I was using the wiki for a fundraiser.
  • contacting others off wiki to rig voting.
  • Offering up ideas such as close all articles and forward them to a site that they could make money off of.
  • general lack of integrity and lying around every single corner and hiding actions off of the wiki.
  • saying that unless they gained power would rather destroy the wiki.

What has been happening both on and off wiki to trigger this problem?

  • Off the wiki gracey has been trying to find ways to make money by starting his own site. This mostly started because I talked about having a forum and then he started trying to find ways to earn cash off of it.
  • A week before this issue gracey quit the wiki and vandalized the for testing wiki we use by deleting pages and content.
  • contacted other admins/users and told them lies about me so that he could try to swing votes. Telling others I was using the wiki for fundraisers.
  • His overall goal was to either get power or destroy the wiki. I posted one of his youtube messages on my talk page.
  • Trying to forward pages to his own site was the real goal. They wanted money and power to abuse so they can do it. Thats all this whole thing boils down too.

How can we resolve the disagreement and bring calm back to the wiki?

  • It can be resolved by following the communities vote.
  • We dont need admins who's goals are to lie about other admins to gain power or try to earn money of the wiki. If they are so desperate for power that they would lie and rig voting there is no place for them here.

Should Mathmagician and Gracy's rights should be replaced?

  • Under no circumstances should Gracey be allowed back on the wiki. I am not 100% about math anymore but his conduct was very disturbing and needs to be addressed. I am not saying yes i want him on the wiki, I am saying i would like him to address a few things before i give my final opinion of him and his involement in the matters.
  • The community has voted and after they respond if they would like a re-vote they will lose by thousands again.
  • The community's vote should be respected and not thought of as a joke. hiding things in the community portal so that the few people that you have tried to rig votes with can participate is unjust. We had a front page vote so that the whole community can vote. It's not about editors vs users, it's the community as a whole. they lost their admin rights by 1500 votes.
  • The video isnt an issue because it was more than clear that the community 19:1 was in favor of me handling video.
  • The issue of gracey and math was 3:1 so it is something that can be argued.
  • Either way the vote should stand. The wiki should be able to stand on its vote anything less is a disrespect to the process of even having votes on a wiki. Whats the point if liars can have it overturned by lying to staff through their teeth.

Final thoughts

  • Its def not funny to threaten to shoot up staff because you want something your way. I don't even understand why wikia wants to discuss reinstating Gracey.
  • This my friends is why if they rejoin the wiki or staff lets them rejoin I will be leaving this place and admins who think its good to threatening people with guns to get what they want can run the place.
  • I would like to thank gracey for doing such a good job of hiding evidence off the wiki but forgetting not to post death threats about staff.... Thanks,

HeroGaming 22:30, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Mathmagician

What Has Transpired, My Point of View

Hero has had more than his fair chance to share his view of events with the community. Now, it's my turn.

  1. First of all, the idea to consider a change to the video policy was proposed by me, not Gracey--after reading through some comments on the home page talk.
  2. Gracey agreed with my proposal, and established a poll on the Terraria Wiki:Community Portal. The reason it was not put on the front page was most likely because polls have always been placed on the Community Portal before--but you'd have to ask Gracey. In any case, I personally had nothing to do with the creation or placement of the poll (nor have I ever created a poll in all of my 1000+ edits), despite what Hero may say.
  3. Afterwards, Gracey, with my backing, created a forum post where people could propose a change to the video policy. This forum post is archived here. The forum post was NOT secretly hidden away, as I clearly pointed out its existence on the front page of the wiki. Hero was immediately notified of its existence. This was no secret. Apparently, Hero would like to make you think it was, because he deleted Gracey's notification from his talk page--twice. Also, Gracey forwarded an email to me signed by Sannse (passed on to her by Tim DaNASCAT after Gracey emailed him), suggesting the creation of the forum post to discuss a change in the video policy. Unless I'm mistaken, the creation of the forum post was specifically recommended by Staff.
  4. After adding his viewpoint to the video forum post, he changed his mind and decided to delete it. This action is specifically counter to the recommendation given to Gracey via email by Sannse. Furthermore, in doing so, Hero vastly overstepped his administrative rights. Bureaucrats and administrators DO NOT have the right to tamper with (much less delete) community discussions about policy, simply because they don't like the content contained therein. This action was a blatant violation of the Good Faith Policy, a core concept on all Wikia wikis.
  5. Hero removed Gracey's administrator rights and blocked him from editing the wiki. Shortly thereafter, he did the same to me as well.
  6. Hero established a new poll on the home page, while Gracey and I remained blocked from the wiki. While the poll was up (for what, maybe a few hours?), he blatantly asked his livestream viewers (screenshot) to go to the wiki and vote on whether he should remain video admin and whether Gracey and I should be permanently banned from the wiki. The results of this poll should be held invalid, as they obviously represent the views of his audience. They are not in any way an accurate representation of this wiki's community. Is there an honest person here who denies this? Polls are by nature easy to manipulate and should not ever be used as the final deciding factor on a wiki. That's why Gracey and I created a forum post in the first place. That's probably also a factor in why Sannse decided to create this forum post. The proper way to resolve issues on a wiki is through written communication.
  7. Hero created several blog posts in which he characterized mine and Gracey's conducted while we were blocked from the wiki, without any ability to defend our position. The comments on these blog posts demonstrate that the community is not entirely behind Hero. Furthermore, Hero has been deleting comments on his blog posts as well.
  8. Hero's absolutely ridiculous antics have been well documented on Community Central. I highly encourage you to read that forum thread. That thread is more than just a little unchecked emotion. It proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Hero thinks he owns the wiki. I'm sorry, but a single person cannot own a wiki.

Off-Wiki Communications

  1. For transparency, I'd like to link to my communications with Sannse regarding this matter. Yes, there were some private emails between us, but there is a lot of communication to be seen over on Community Central: http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:352915
    http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:353340
  2. The list of users I have contacted regarding this issue outside the wiki, before this ordeal began is very short: Gracey91, Dzylon, The Pathogen. In Dzylon and Pathogen's case, it was to inform them of the private communications between Hero, Gracey and myself over on the For Testing wiki.
  3. I have been in contact with the Russian Terraria Community both before and during this incident. Initially, it was to discuss forming a partnership between our wikis. After being banned from the wiki, Gracey and I had to inform them that we couldn't form the partnership--because we were blocked from the wiki. Feel free to google translate this page if you want the details.

Areas of Disagreement

  1. I disagree with Hero having exclusive control of the production of video content via his youtube partners. I enjoy some of his videos, as I have said before over on his talk page. But there are a lot of other good youtubers out there, such as Yrimir and TerrariaHelp. I feel that it's in the wiki's best interests to rediscuss our video policy as a community (that's why Gracey and I created that video forum post), hopefully to allow a little bit more freedom in the posting of video content. Hero's videos are certainly welcome on the wiki. I just disagree with him having the final say over the matter.
  2. I strongly disagree with Hero's conduct throughout this affair. The rigged voting. Banning me without valid reason (again, I can't defend Gracey's conduct, but what exactly am I guilty of?). Covering up evidence. Additionally, Hero has had run ins with people before. Consider when he stole copyrighted content from Cursed, and then told current Cursed staff member Wynthyst that it wasn't a big deal. Just read his forum post above mine. His conduct is certainly in need of improvement. Hero's a great youtuber. A great person in the Terraria Community. He's done so much for this wiki and the game. But his personal conduct on the wiki is in serious need of improvement.
  3. Bad Blood: I disagree with some of Gracey's outlashes at Hero concerning these matters. But, you have to realize that Gracey and Hero have a lot of history together. I do not have any such history with Hero, so I have no reason to hate him and he should have no reason to hate me. In fact, before this incident, Hero and I were getting along just fine (that's just one of several positive communications between us). Gracey can speak for his own conduct. It's not my place to do so.

What Caused All This?

  1. This is just my opinion, but I believe the single biggest reason for this incident lies in a private disagreement that Gracey had with Hero over the layout of the front page about a week or two earlier. Gracey became so upset over the incident that he was considering leaving the wiki. I stepped in and intervened in their argument, because I didn't want to see Gracey leave. Tempers were flaring at the time, so I felt it necessary to use some strong words to resolve the issue. In hindsight, there was perhaps a better way I could have handled the issue--but my intentions at least were good.
  2. I think that Hero is personally upset with Gracey (and vice-versa), and that Hero banned me because I had the appearances of siding with Gracey against him--when all I really wanted to do was engage the community in a discussion about the video policy. He's unfortunately gone absolutely mad in his attempt to retain control of "his" wiki.

Why I (Mathmagician) Should Be Allowed To Return

  1. Aside from the fact that I have the appearances of siding with Gracey over the video policy issue, I have not wronged Hero nor attempted to do so. I do not bear him any ill will. Also, I have made many positive contributions as an editor here, and helped a lot of people with my walkthroughs on my blog. I love this wiki and I have never vandalized it. I also possess some knowledge that few editors or administrators currently on this wiki have, and am fully willing to share this information with others for the benefit of the wiki.
  2. What logical basis is there for my removal from the community? Should I be removed simply because the current bureaucrat doesn't like me (again, I'm not even sure what he has against me exactly)? Hero's accusations against Gracey do not apply to me. And whatever accusations he's leveled against me are false at best and slanderous at worst. Please prove what exactly it is that I've done wrong.

How Can We Resolve This

  1. Speaking for myself, I am willing to come to terms with Hero and see if we can find a way for the both of us to be on this wiki and contribute to the community together. By the things he's said however, unfortunately Hero doesn't seem willing to work things out with me =(
  2. This incident has made it abundantly clear that I cannot trust Hero's conduct as a Wikia user. I request a community discussion about a change in the bureaucratic and administrative structure of this wiki: Either Hero is removed as bureaucrat and replaced, or there is no bureaucrat at all, or a second bureaucrat is appointed to keep Hero's power in check. Again, Hero thinks he runs the wiki. I absolutely cannot approve of his attitude and conduct. It is 1) detrimental for the entire community and 2) profoundly wrong for the wiki to continue to be run in this fashion.
  3. I would like to push for a reconsideration of equality in user status in this community. All users should be treated as equals and have equal say in all things. Bureaucrats or administrators do not outrank normal users. They're simply normal users with a little extra experience and a few extra buttons to help clean up vandalism and such.
    Mathmagician ( talk
    blog ) 01:37, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

General comments

@Hero: This is a wiki. You don't hog everything to yourself. If you want to do so, make a blog here, not here. --Jt 23:52, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Jeffwang: as I said above, I'm asking the regular editors of this wiki to comment here - and not those from other wikis. Please leave this alone for now, thank you.
HeroGaming: please do not delete any comments from this page for the duration of the discussion. If anything needs to be removed, I will do so. Equally, if anyone needs to be blocked for actions on this thread (or related pages) then I will do so. It would not be appropriate for that action to come from you at the moment. Thanks -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 00:21, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry about that, then, Sannse. --Jt 00:23, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough I just want the discussion to be on topic.--HeroGaming 00:25, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yep.

As mentioned above, Hero asked his thousands of Livestream viewers to vote. They are obviously not part of the wiki's community.

400px

If that's not enough, I am in possession of videos. Also, I have been told the Master Sword was deleted to mask something. The deletion logs can be found here. If you'd like to restore that page, Sannse, be my guest. (In the screenshot, there are 665 viewers. This is because the shot was taken at the beginning of the broadcast). Dzylon 01:48, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

This only proves more so that I always bring traffic to the wiki, whether we are having trouble or I am referring them for articles. It's down right silly to try and separate the viewers and act like they are less important than the editors. They are MORE important than the editors. Because a lot of them become both.--HeroGaming 02:40, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
The master sword was deleted because it was a joke with my subscribers to get them editing on the wiki. I made a joke item for them and refereed them all to the wiki to find out how to make it. it was one of many promotions of the wiki. It was made for fun with my subscribers. Again more promotion of the wiki. You guys can try and separate out all the people who are the users and not the editors but its not that simple. Dzylon can you please address the fact that you were contacted and told that I was using the wiki for a fundraiser for $1700.--HeroGaming 02:10, February 2, 2012 (UTC)HeroGaming 03:38, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
The Master Sword page was created so Hero could link users to his livestream where he had his donation link. Under that was an appeal for money for his holiday. If you read the master sword page and comments you will see other admins were openly against you doing it, others also complained. I would hope that's looked into as all the proof is still there. Gracey91 (talk contribs count) 05:42, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hero Responds to Math.

Wiki ownership

I have never claimed to own the wiki. I will claim to be the reason it was successful and got to #1 in google and that is the whole reason we have all the editors we do. It's because I have directed thousands to the wiki. The whole reason you are hear and not terraria online is because of me, beacause I got us to number one in google with all of the promotion.

It comes off as slightly arrogant to me for you to claim that you're the whole reason I'm here. Secondly, there is no need for a statement from you that you own the wiki. In my eyes, your actions have regrettably spoken for themselves.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Hundreds can attest to this.

Also during that livestream I said to vote how you would want to vote. I said its your wiki if you want them to stay its your vote and dont do it based on me. That is why so many people chose to have them stay. Again acting like the community who made this wiki as large as it is are invalid is incorrect thinking.--HeroGaming 02:13, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

The master sword was deleted because it was a joke with my subscribers to get them editing on the wiki. I made a joke item for them and refereed them all to the wiki to find out how to make it. it was one of initial promotions of the wiki. It was made for fun with my subscribers. Again more promotion of the wiki. You guys can try and separate out all the people who are the users and not the editors but its not that simple. Dzylon can you please address the fact that you were contacted and told that I was using the wiki for a fundraiser for $1700.--HeroGaming 02:10, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't terribly concern me what you said on the livestream, so much as the fact that you used it to get votes. This was wrong. Not all of your livestream or youtube viewers are part of this community. The ones who are could have found the poll on the front page themselves. You were flat out wrong to campaign with the opposition (Gracey and I) banned, and I will not concede this point until the day I move to a country that has a 1-party government system.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Real issue.

The issue for me was never video. It is more than clear to anyone that complainers are vocal and happy people don't have to complain because they are happy. If you wanna see how many people on youtube are users i have sent to the wiki i should post a video not tell people about it in a live stream. The real issue was gracey's intentions and your wiki lies to people to sway voting. Saying I used the wiki for fundraisers to try to slander me to gain power in voting.

I have not perpetrated "wiki lies" to sway voting. I apologize for this appearance, and I wish I knew how to prove to you that this is not the case. However, as the person with the large youtube following (who has admitted to sending most people to the wiki), statistically speaking, it is you who are more likely to be guilty of lying to sway voting, so I think it's kind of silly for you to think that I did so. Since you command a large following, the return on investment would be greater for you--not so much for me.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

I was wrong about who started the vote.

I will admit initial confusion as to who started the video debate but this is due to off wiki conversations with Gracey stating that he was going to destroy the wiki. I originally thought this was part of his threat. Video aside you both attempted to rig voting to gain power by contacting members off the wiki. Told lies to members saying that I used the wiki for a fundraiser? Can you provide an edit for that? It didn't happen.

I can see that you're really offended by the fundraiser thing. I shared this information with Dzylon with the explicit disclaimer "This is something I heard from Gracey, I don't know if it's true or not." I did not share that information with anyone else nor did I attempt to use it against you. I apologize for sharing gossip.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
However, since it's a sticky issue, let's put the truth out in the open so we can move forward on sound basis. Sannse, please restore this so-called Master Sword page so that the truth can be seen plain as day.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
well I feel i will stop a train wreck waiting to happen by explaining what was happening with this page. Since gracey has doctored up such a good story. I can have hundreds verify this story as well as admin port5 I believe. In early days when I was trying to get us to number one in google I would do silly things like tell my subscribers in the livestream that their was an ultimate weapon on the wiki. Then i would link the wiki and the would all going trying to find it. The would get to the article and it would say sorry HEROs not telling you how to craft it unless your in the livestream at this time. I would never be streaming at that time because I worked those hours at AT&T so it was to get people to the wiki as a joke and then tell them they can't have an awnser. Yea it was very childish but gracey took it way outta context. sorry but you must have the impression that the article was made to get people to my livestream which is not at all the case. Sure it was silly but it's one of the silly pranks that got us to #1 in google. If i had to go back id do it again. We saw a huge influx of editors after, this was all from the joke and many other games I ran. i gave away t-shirts to the best editor of the week and all kinds of stuff. If people want to take something outta context fine sure it looks bad but explained it only looks bad you brought it up. I am a nice guy who has done nothing but help the wiki grow and when you stop trying to find fault you'll hopefully see that.--HeroGaming 06:34, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

No notification prior to change? why?

I was not notified of the community pole or any intentions to change video till after the creation. This is because it was an attempt to push something through like with congress. The first pole was in the community portal and was u 2 days before the first notification of any attempted changes came to me.

Sorry, forgot to add, I think that I addressed this below in the "Let's Be Honest" section. You've asked about this in multiple sections, so I wasn't really sure where to say what.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:12, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

The thread was removed because it was spam

The thread was removed because it was spam in my opinion. Our wiki had dealt with this long before you came along Math. To re post a settled issue to me was spam. I was never informed of any involvement from staff. Why? Because this wasn't the real issue as I have outline Graceys real goal was control, Regardless of video. Do i think i should have removed it now? No after talking with Sannse I see how things come off. but tell me why there was no notification of a possible vote sent to me prior to the vote? Because it was an underhanded politician tactic. Video is not the real issue.

I'm not entirely sure I buy this... if it was spam, you should have reprimanded me for posting spam (when in my edit history have I posted spam?). Instead, you simply banned me. Additionally, there was no notification sent to me of a possible vote when you held a vote on the front page. You repeatedly use the phrase "underhanded politician tactic," but I don't see how that applies to me. If anything, people should be questioning you about that, given your documented (proven, not asserted) conduct.
Fair enough I didn't notify you of the vote or maybe I did but you were blocked either way i can't argue against a valid point. Underhanded politics does apply to what you guys pulled. A few days earlier you agreed to becoming an admin and in that agreement it talked about a video heavy wiki and that I was the video admin and i handled that area of the wiki but you made no contact before throwing up a vote. It was underhanded.--HeroGaming 06:39, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Trying to separate the viewers from the editors.

How many users have over a hundred edit? Under 200-300? how many viewer? Millions, that's because this is a wiki of viewers. The entire community was built from youtube. Its the reason for the wikis success. It's the reason we got to number one in google search results. To say that they aren't involved when they are the users of the wiki and the biggest group is a contradictory thing. If i am using the wiki to fund my own channel than the user are from the wiki. If i am not then i have sent thousands of people to the wiki. Which is it. Because to act like they aren't valid in this argument is silly. They are the largest part of the community. You can't act like they aren't part of the community when they are the reason its successful some turn into editors some are just viewers. One of them is one of our biggest admins. You must be joking if you think that they aren't a valid part of the community. By Sannse's own admission there is vast amount of people involved in this wiki that I have brought here. The more you look at it the more its apparent. If i am the reason for #1 in google than 90% of the editors here are here by default because of me. Egotistical? No. Truthful yes. Am i proud of that? Most definitely.

Some of your youtube following and fanbase are part of this community. Certainly not all. Furthermore, I do indeed think they are a valid part of the community. However--when it comes to the particular issue of the exact manner in which the poll you held on the front page went down--I just don't think that that was the voice of this wiki community.
Secondly, let's be honest. There aren't that many good editors around here. It's nice that you bring in a lot of viewers, but I think what we really need badly are more editors (who aren't 10 years old), don't you think?
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
careful your starting to sound like gracey and not liking the average user of terraria. It is a younger age group game. And plenty of viewers become editors. ask admin Port5 he's a subscriber and editor. With over 1000 edits. Your only on the wiki because it was number 1 in google when you searched terraria wiki. It got there because of the viewers not the less than 100 active editors. The viewers will always outrank the editors. We can disagree on this but its clear that the viewers gave the wiki her rank and help her hold it. If i switch all my links to the other wiki as well as my annotations and promoted the other wiki I am certain it would have google top spot in less than 2 weeks.(talking about it like a girl haha its grammatically correct but you know you have become to attached to wiki when it's living to you.)HeroGaming 06:48, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Well, the thing is, this is a wiki. To wikis, editors are extremely important. Viewers don't contribute to the content that appears on the pages. All viewers and no editors makes for low quality content. Makes sense, right? All I mean to say here is that I'm not satisfied with the number of editors and the experience of the editors we currently have here. That's why I made an account and starting writing in the first place.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 07:12, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest.

A lot of thing heard from gracey were on a we basis. I should have came to you about the accusations. I can't say for certain if what users said about you is true and you were really going off the wiki and telling people I was using the wiki for a fundraiser just to slander me. Did you do this? And if so where are your edits to support this?

As I said above, I did not slander you nor did I attempt to do so. There shouldn't be any edits to support that notion, because that's not the case.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Gracey spoke of you guys as a team when talking about destroying the wiki and others made the claims about you trying to sway votes by contact off the wiki. I would like to know why you never informed me of any intentions to change the video policy prior to the vote? It was a politicians tactic and I would like that addressed.

I was not aware that I needed your permission before starting a community forum discussion. I should not have to get anyone's permission to do so, just as I don't need anyone's permission to create a template or edit a page. As for the poll, see above. This wasn't a politician's tactic. If it was, why did Gracey inform you of the forum post? In fact, why was a forum post created at all? Surely a wiser politician would have stuck with just the poll hidden on the community portal. If you think about it, Hero, the facts just don't correlate.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
I am pretty sure he informed me because staff said he had too. He spoke with me after banning him and by spoke I mean screamed threats at me. One of the things he said was staff told him to notify me of the vote. I dont think something that big could pass without having input from the active b-crat. Thats why. i don't know how it goes over on other wikis but there is a reason for a bcrat. Again though it was spam. The issue was already handled before you came along. To me you guys should have spoke with me prior to doing a vote or at least the intent to before starting a community argument because thats what votes are. Is it required? I think so. You don't just put everything to a vote. Not everything needs to be put to a vote. It can be talked through prior to ever needing a vote. So in short yes it is required to notify the bcrat of a wiki about a vote. That's the whole reason for the structures and you should have contacted me prior to doing it because it could have been resolved before any of these problems arose.

You don't seem to understand this wiki and marketing go hand and hand.

Sure there are other youtubers that play terraria. Yes some do tutorials. No none of the tutorial users do better tutorials or promote the wiki more than i do. If you had came to me prior to the vote you could have been more informed. Because of the promotion through my videos the wiki has gained thousands of editors. We are now #1 in google. All editors gained from being number one in google are directly related to my promotion of the wiki and nothing else. I won't conceed this issue. You can call me prideful and I will say I am truthful. I have thousands of references that will tell you they use this wiki because of me. Now other youtubers promote other wikis. yrimir in particular is not valid to have any videos on this wiki. He supports another wiki in almost all of his videos. I am sorry his videos are not going up on the wiki. He is a strong strong supporter of terraria online and he links them in almost every description and puts a note in the videos as the wiki he uses. We are not going to post videos of someone whos intention is to grow another wiki. This is also the case with almost every single youtuber outside of me who does tutorials. Terrariahelp does item video weeks after the item is out and never links to our wiki. He does however link to terrariaonline. He has also had issues with stealing other people content in the community but i am not going to address that here. His video aren't top priority, but i have posted his before when they weren't promoting another wiki. If your goal is to build the wiki and keep it in the number one spot for google then recommending yrimir or terrariahelp who are huge supporters of terrariaonline is not in line with the wikis goals and trying to get them to change allegiance is a bad idea too because sending traffic to them when they have so many pro terrariaonline vids is a bad idea.

Again all of this would have been made clear if you would have spoken to me prior. Instead of blindly listening to gracey about how i use the wiki for a fundraiser or how i dont let others submit videos. terrariahelp prior to allying with terrariaonline was able to submit videos to the wiki. he chose to start working with them and he does videos for their wiki now. I am fine with working with other video editors and I have posted plenty of other peoples videos and there are many articles i haven't even covered. We will never post the videos of users directly supporting another wiki. That much should be common sense.HeroGaming 03:18, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'm really glad that I got to read this section that you wrote, because I have a lot I would like to say here. It seems that we might have a fundamental disagreement here. People who play Terraria are not interested in petty conflicts between wikis or people (see all the older comments on your blog?). Terraria Online is a great part of the Terraria Community as a whole (all people who play Terraria across the world). There is no need for hostile competition. Keep in mind that there are people who use both wikis, and are not necessarily dedicated to one or the other. Wikis are not exclusive clubs. They're just another open resource. To see you (and Gracey!) be hateful towards Terraria Online frankly disgusts me, because the people at Terraria Online are Terraria players just like you and me.
Content on a wiki should be something that the community at large would like to see. I don't think it's 100% reasonable to expect ALL videos to be from your youtube partners and to be reviewed by you before being posted here--it's simply too much work for one person. While quality of content is important--so is user's freedom in being able to contribute all types of content to the wiki. I think, with some discussion, a middle ground here can be reached.
Other youtubers such as Yrimir, TerrariaHelp, etc. have large followings--larger than those of most of your youtube partners, whose videos you seem to use quite sparingly (correct me if I'm wrong). In order to grow this wiki and promote the greater Terraria Community across the world (you love the game, so you should want to do this), it's in your best interests, as well as the best interests of this wiki's community, to provide a diversity of content. Reaching out to these other youtubers and trying to get their videos here is a great thing for the community here.
I am correcting you because you are wrong. Sorry but there will never be any cross promotion of the other competing non wikia wiki. Never. We aren't promoting that wiki who has tried to buy off admin after admin and is our direct competition. It simply won't ever happen. I will not budge on this in any shape or form they are direct business competition to wikia. this wiki is about the game not about the opposing wiki. there will never be videos on our site that promote the other wiki. Sorry not happening ever. You struck the biggest cord. This will never happen ever. I will fight tooth and nail over this. I didn't fight to outrank them in google just to have us become their backlink.--HeroGaming 07:15, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
The only reason this wouldn't work is if copyright is being infringed. If copyright isn't an issue, there's no reason that the same video can't be on two different wikis, just as there's no reason that the same video can't appear on multiple video hosting sites. There's so many people across the world who play Terraria, all of which are potential members of this wiki's community. Why can't we drop the hostility between wikis and be open, honest and friendly with everyone? That's exactly the kind of thing that will really help the community here to grow and be loved.
Sorry but wikia is a business and they arent in the business of sending traffic to competing wikis that hurt their business model. Not happening ever. We will never cross promote a competing wiki ever. That type of talk is of someone who doesn't care about the wiki and its growth. we are not sending any users to the wiki ever. EVER. Under no circumstances would we ever cross promote. The more you talk about it the more I think happypal has paid you off. It's not happening. Terrariaonline will nver get traffic from us. Let me explain if we have 2 countries and their primary export is coffee and one of their members thinks its ok or normal to promote the other countries coffee he would be seen as a someone who hates hsi country. You support the wiki you work on not get bought off by Happypal or Wynthyst. sorry but the more i read about this the more I am starting to think you should go to the other wiki if you love it so much or think it's so great.--HeroGaming 07:15, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Lastly, I want to add that it is not any one person's place to decide what the goals of the wiki are, because no one person can own a wiki. I would like to see some community discussion over what the wiki's goals are, rather than having everything being decided by you without conversation and input from the community. If this was settled before my time, let's open it up for discussion again, because the people you settled it with are no longer here, and the current active members of the community (not just admins, everyone) ought to be given a chance to have their say.
In closing, I reiterate that I would like to work things out with you. I'm not so fast to cave in and concede on every point. There are some more things we need to talk about. But I would like to see some more community discussions, and a change in the administrative structure. I reiterate that I do not any longer have full confidence in you as the sole bureaucrat on this wiki, and I think that's a very fair point to reiterate, given your abuse of power and how you handled this entire issue. Whether that means having a 2nd bureaucrat, or no bureaucrat at all--whatever the solution, I think something needs to be talked about here.
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 06:06, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
If your intentions are to send any traffic anywhere else then you should go there. Sorry but you seem way to pro terrariaonline for me. this whole message was you trying to get terrariaonline and terrariaonline supporters featured. You need to change that stance or change your wiki.--HeroGaming 07:15, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Path's PoV

To Begin

After watching the conflict that's transpired over the past few weeks, I've still not come to a static conclusion. I've not sided with Hero, nor with Gracey and Math. But, in saying that, I'm sure of one thing; As a passionate wiki editor and player of Terraria, I only want what's best for the community. I see that Hero's putting more effort into his grammar and spelling, as well as his attitude towards different video material (Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer Hero's videos, regardless of any slight mistakes - They're more visually appealing than most others).

Continuing On

I've read through all the evidence that's been revealed to me, and I believe that Hero does what he does for the love of the game and the wiki itself. I don't judge if he makes money off of his YouTube partnership, regardless of the nature of the videos or where they're posted. Seeing what Gracey had done first almost made me decide in the favor of Hero without hesitation, but I decided to delve further first - and it's a good thing I did. That extra delving is what put me into this central position of how I feel on the matter. In my judgement, I think both Gracey and Math should be allowed back onto the wiki, but should Gracey or Math do anything wrong (And I'm still unsure of what Math did to begin with), then they could be removed again, this time for good. This is just how I feel on the matter in a base way though.

In Conclusion

I may not have much of a say in the matter, but as Hero asked for my Point of View on the matter, I decided to put mine forward. I do hope that it doesn't offend anyone, in any way. If it does, please inform me so. If there is anything more that I should put my opinion forward on, please don't hesitate to say so either. Thanks, Path out.

User:The PathogenUser talk:The PathogenUser blog:The PathogenThe Pathogen-Signature Image
04:12, February 2, 2012 (UTC)


Gracey91

The first disagreement was with the front page i made on the fortesting wiki. It wasn't that hero didn't like it, it was after 4 hours of work to just make a page template hero just went No and that was it he wouldn't discuss it at all and refused to allow the community to choose. I clearly stated this on the fortesting wiki and i decided to get over it, as stated. I was clearly annoyed at the time and deleted the front page, i don't really see this as an issue as my wiki is on like the 10th page of google, and only users who know me directly use the wiki. Thats still only like 3-4 people.

I moved on and continued to edit the wiki, i kept seeing people complaining in comments about incorrect info on videos something i have reported to hero a number of times. There is also the complaint on the terraria wiki talk page. I also received an email from Math as detailed above about how he agreed something needed to be done. I understand that there will always be people who just say something sucks cos they can. So i made a poll on the community portal to get a gauge on how people felt, i wasn't going to use it as an official poll, or decision it was just for an idea on how random users felt. About 80% of the vote wanted more people to add videos. I figured that was enough to allow a forum post. Which was simply about should more than just hero be allowed to add videos, i wasn't nasty to hero in any way in my opposition to him. Like math said hero was notified, i also sent it to him through youtube to ensure he knew asap.

Heros response was to remove my rights and block me from the wiki claiming i was a trouble maker. He then proceeded to create lies in an attempt to distract the users from what really happened. I never quit the wiki i told hero i would take a break and later implied i might leave if he didn't stop going "well i'm the bcrat so its my decision". Hero then made Math a admin(without my backing so it was his choice) and was going to add Pathogen, i felt like i was being replaced so i came back to the wiki to continue editing. I never vandalized my test wiki i deleted one page and since i was annoyed i left an annoyed deletion summary. I have never threatened to destroy this wiki or any other wiki. I have never used the wiki to make money and i have never thought of ways to make money from the wiki. Hero is the only one who makes money on the wiki, and this is clearly all its about. I make a post to challenge heros video policy and since it will cost him money he blocks me. How is proposing a change being a trouble maker? If he felt the community really supported the videos he would have left the forum post and make it official.

The way to solve this i think is to reinstate the forum post i created. It prevents users from easily rigging the vote and we get to really see what people think. Since thats what this was all about.

I have no great issue with hero, like I'm just sad about how he has chosen to act. I believe i can still work with him as long as he can accept its not all his choice and that the users have a right to suggest changes without him just removing them.

Hero claims this will damage the wiki but it wont. A second forum post would be made after the first to decide how users would be allowed to add videos and who. This would prevent any damage being done as no changes would be allowed until a community decision was reached.

Hero also claims that his videos are good and are of excellent quality. Its just many are wrong, and even though i bring them to his attention he doesn't fix them. Hero you have a list on your profile page that has been there since 18th of November, you are still yet to do them. There are far too many videos for only one person to be able to update and keep up to date.

Re-guarding the message wall message that wasn't a threat, i have the right to be annoyed when i dislike a change that Wikia have previously stated will be added to all wikis. I also removed the comment mins after i posted it.

Per my rights i think they should be reinstated. All i did was make a forum post to allow the community to decide, the issue has just been clouded with things that mean nothing. I am the most experienced users on this site, i make good edits, i clean up after vandals, i made most of the wikis templates, i designed all the abusefilters used on the wiki, i added WHAM to allow admins to fight vandals with a real chance + the fast delete, i do all the css/js work on the wiki. I monitor all RC edits, i check the logs, i wrote most of the policies and i help the users. Basically i do pretty much all the admin work. Although math is starting to shoulder a fair amount of the work now. I have never done anything wrong on this wiki, all i have done is help to make it the best wiki it can be. Gracey91 (talk contribs count) 06:49, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

View from the outside community

Hello, my name is happypal. I'm the main Bureaucrat over at terraria online, as well as a few other wikis. I think I can safely say that our community is made up in majority of editors who have either left terraria.wikia, or have simply decided to not even participate. Contrary to Hero's claims, terrariaonline is the n°1 answer for google terraria wiki. I'll tell you one thing: Competing against Wikia is hard, very hard, and be honest, I do not think it would have been possible if Hero hadn't made this place one people didn't like to begin with.

I would like to remind everyone that as terraria's Bureaucrat, Hero's job is also being this wiki's voice. A diplomat, if you will. 6 months ago, I had to return here because of a copyright issue we were having. This edit shows Hero simply copy pasting from another copyrighted source. I came here expecting I could find an adult and to have a civil conversation. I was baffled to be greeted by a man-child with strictly no understanding of what copyrights are, or to even have decent manners. The conversations (that haven't been deleted...) can be found here or here. After completly failing to acknowledge the problem, Hero proceeded to blocking anybody who brought up the subject, and defaced their userpages. Overall appalling behavior. The end result was that what should have been a normal discussion devolved into complete cluster****, and had the staffs of both Curse and Wikia involved. I do not know if DMCA's were actually filed, but they were definitely on the table. Long story short, a situation no one wanted to be in. The fact that Hero no only started the whole incident, but completely failed to bring it to a close, speak long on his incompetence.

I think Hero is a good editor, I do. He has done huge amounts of work for this wiki, and I'll say I would have wished he worked on our wiki instead :D However, everybody knows that adminship is neither a popularity contest, nor a reward. It is a job that is given to users who have the competence to do it. Hero has no manners, no mediawiki knowledge or even etiquette. He has used his position to shape this wiki into his image and has removed anybody who is in disagreement with him. This is in complete opposition to how a wiki should work, and is definitely not up to the standards of Wikia. Without even talking about the recent incidents, I am baffled at how Hero is allowed to remain an administrator after all of bad behavior he has shown. I highly doubt he's be voted an admin today if he wasn't already one.

Being the outside editor, I know I do not get a say on how today's situation should be solved. However, my experiences here on this wiki, as well as who I represent, and the image Hero has given of wikia and this wiki to the outside, those are relevant to the current situation, and I hope they'll be taken into account. I have voiced my opinion and shall not intervene anymore. Good luck to all parties involved. happypal (talk • contribs) 08:04, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry happy but a man who has offered to buy off admins and threatens to have cyber attacks on our wiki doesn't have any intentions here except to start more problems. Its funny that the competing wiki would come in here and offer to give advice about how we should help our wiki? because you guys want to help us so bad. I will admit i am startelded by the fact that you guys are #1 in google the week of this arguement. When you haven't been for months and months. This is what happens when you let people destroy the wiki for money. The fact that you are here defending gracey only solidifies the fact that were working with either gracey or math. You guys have offered money to me the former bcrat and i am sure not at the very least gracey which caused all these problems. Wikia should do an investigation and file a law suit.--HeroGaming 08:53, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
The very last 2 comments on this page here I directly confront your other b-crat about trying to buy off admins. What does he do? He says it was not done on this wiki. "He is saying it doesn't matter because they spoke about it elsewhere" That is curse at its core. They intend to destroy this wiki by any means possible. They do this with every wiki. They have already started doing it on another wiki I am involved with aswell. It's part of there tactics to buy off admins of existing wikis that outrank them.HeroGaming 18:47, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

RE to Hero's Claims About Curse

  • http://wiki.terrariaonline.com/User_talk:Gracey91 Happy may be involved because of this (as Hero said) Not sure, just throwing that out there. Listen to what he said: "this has never been a Wikia-vs-Curse thing" So why are we trying to turn it into one? Everything I read above looks like pure speculation.
  • To clarify, I have not been bought off by nor have I spoken with Happypal, nor have I ever made an account on Terraria Online. I am a simple college student. I work as a math tutor. I go to class. I play video games. I have never earned any money through any company via the internet, whether honestly or dishonestly. Did it ever occur to you that Happy is here simply because he wants to be, and that I have nothing to do with that? Go ask some Curse staff members or people at Terraria Online. If they're honest, none of them will say they've talked to me. Why? Because they've never talked to me, and have no clue in the world who I am (other than what they may have read about this incident).
  • I was not around when previous "admins were bought off by Curse." What I can say, is that were I to leave this wiki, the reason would be a direct result of Hero's conduct. It's most likely that Hero's conduct was the reason previous admins left this wiki. If that isn't evident enough now, then sadly it never will be.
  • Please explain the part where I want to send traffic to Terraria Online? If that's the case, why did I waste time making 1500 edits here when I could have made them over there? Secondly, Yrimir and TerrariaHelp are simply 2 big names that are easy to remember, that's why I've mentioned them. They don't plug Terraria Online as much as you plug this wiki, Hero. You're exaggerating this. There's also no reason we can't ask them to include a link to us in their videos as a condition for having them on this wiki. Finally, I want lots of users' videos to have a chance to be on the wiki. Not just those 2 guys. You've twisted and misrepresented my words. I support honesty and friendliness. I am not "in league" with Terraria Online. I simply don't want to be hostile with them, because 1) it hurts the image of this community, 2) it hurts the Terraria Community across the world and 3) being friendly is the right thing to do.
  • Terraria Online has been #1 on google for a while now, Hero. Where have you been? It was not caused directly by this incident. Rather, it's more likely due to the fact that our information is inaccurate, so people have to visit and revisit the other wiki to find out what they need to know. Also, your conduct could be driving them away. By your actions both in the past and during this incident, you've made yourself out to be an enemy to all of Terraria Online and Cursed, the Russian Terraria Community here on Wikia, far too many random people on the internet (http://encyclopedia*dramatica.ch/HeroGaming), undoubtedly the most skilled and knowledgeable admin you've ever worked with in Gracey, as well as so many people in this community who commented on your blog posts. By having hostilities with so many different parties, you promote partisanship and make it more difficult to expand and nurture the wiki. This is highly inadvisable behavior.
  • You overemphasize the importance of marketing. Google rankings are not everything for a wiki. A nest of 100 healthy ants is better than a nest of 200 ants which are sick. Nurturing a community is just as important as expanding one. To this end, good conduct, honestly and friendliness must prevail--both within and outside of the wiki. Instead, you have demonstrated open hostility with so many people outside of the wiki, and even some people who are/have been on it. Why? We should aim to be friendly with everyone who plays Terraria. As you like to say in your videos, "Hey! What's up my friends?" Or are your friends only your youtube following?
  • Hero, the fact you're writing this seems to indicate that your heart is not in the right place. Your heart lies with your youtube following, and the notion that they are the only ones welcome here on this wiki. Otherwise, you should not be so directly opposing other youtubers or Terraria Online, because there is a potential here to grab their views and grow our wiki--even if you disagree with friendliness for reasons that are inexplicable to me. I think you're being dishonest. You've ignored the true content of my words, and instead used them to help formulate some silly, off-topic conspiracy theory.
  • One last thing. This isn't about money. Again, you're the only one who has possibly ever seen any money related to this. I can appreciate the fact that Wikia is a for profit company, and that some friendly competition with Curse is in order, but the purpose of a wiki is to serve as a repertoire of knowledge and a community for its userbase. It is not to be used primarily as a profit-generating machine, as you opine. I feel that priorities are out of order here.
    Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 15:29, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Math sorry but that page clearly shows that their first contact was off that wiki. you just have to try and find the first edit. Sorry but I know longer buy the fact that the head b-crat of the other wiki happens to just pop up. The same guy who has offered money to members of our wiki to trash it. Happypal, Wynthst, and jonthemon have all broken the law and could have been sued by wikia months ago. The user spacebear was a former b-crat who actually took money from them and started diecting people to there wiki. You can say conspiracy all you want. Me and the former b-crat have both been offered money by these guys. I mentioned this to sannse prior to this guy ever even coming up. If you go through my talk pages with me and the it's nothing but me telling them to keep the scamming off the wiki. Now he just happens to show up on Sannses talk page? To help competing wikis get there admins back? No. That is not whats happening here.--HeroGaming 18:31, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Minor Clarification (happypal)

I didn't want to edit again, but just to clarify, I am NOT affiliated with Curse in any way. I am just a wiki enthusiast. As a matter of fact, I am also a regular editor here @ Wikia, on Borderlands, Supcom, Supcom 2, and Gratuitous Space Battles. Gracey was greeted with open arms on terrariaonline because, well, why wouldn't I greet anyone that way? I have no ulterior motives, nor do I carry any conflicts of interest. I asked Gracey to "not let me down", because I believe he can be my voice.
You'll also notice, contrary to claims, that I never once stated my support Gracey or Mathmagician, nor did I ask for their reinstatement: I have no say in this matter. I came here simply because Hero's behavior has gone against everything I believe in about wikis, and it has my me sick to my stomach. I was once an editor here, and I have the right to have my views be heard. happypal (talk • contribs) 16:15, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Liar. You have offered money to me and the previous bcrat. I said this before you even came into the conversation. You and wynthst and jonthemon have been messing with our wiki for the longest time. No you have not been number one in google for a while i checked less than a week ago. It isn't always the same for ever location in the world. You haven't asked for them to be reinstated? Your also lying again. You directly came to there aid on Sannse's talk page. How did you get involved? You were already involved.--HeroGaming 18:22, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
Here on the last to comments months prior to this arguement I was addressing the fact that curse has been trying to buy off admins.Are you saying I'm lying and that I made this up months in advance? Or that when i accuse the curse admin he brushes it off and says it happened elsewhere like it doesn't matter. Whatever they promised you guys i hope they make good and i hope losing your integrity was worth it.HeroGaming 18:51, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Pausing

OK, I've caught up with all the edits here. HeroGaming, please leave this for a while to give time for consideration and for me to discuss this with other staff.

Others, in particular editing members of this community who have not yet had a say - I'm still interested in hearing from you. I think there are voices here that haven't been heard, and it would be good if can join in. If you feel unable to comment publicly, then please use Special:Contact. I'm hoping to be back with my thoughts on all this later today, so if you do want to contact me that way, please do so as quickly as possible (if you put my name in the mail, it will help). Thanks -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 19:09, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Admin Port5

First off I fully support Hero and think he should continue to be our B-crat and video manager. People against Hero have constantly assaulted him, calling him a dictator and names of the ilk, for having strict video rules. Hero has helped so much with the video problem and has hurt none, before "The Purge"(removal of any and all videos found on the Terraria Wikia,) we managed to accumulate more videos than we had pages, most of them not very useful. Now finding a bad video on an item is a rare find, and we don't have to worry about having misunderstood information involving videos. Furthermore, in the past, Gracey has stated some very incriminating back into the wiki off the basis of the following statement. "I hate the message wall." "This is shit someone should go to wikia with a gun and get this sorted." As found in the seventh contribution down, here [[1]]. Math has been known to work with the other Wiki in attempts to hurt, not help, this wiki. Port5 02:03, February 3, 2012 (UTC)Port5

On a second thought, Gracey has been known to consistently insult and try to degrade Hero after the Fortesting incident, I do not think this should be able to pass by without proper justice. Port5 02:07, February 3, 2012 (UTC)Port5

Some conclusions.

Firstly, I want to make clear that I do not in any way see this as a "Curse vs. Wikia" issue. Our relationship with Curse is occasionally complicated, but this is not in any way the center of the problem on this wiki.

Herogaming has made some pretty wild accusations, including some that I see as particularly problematic.

For example, Happypal's comments to Gracey to the Curse wiki. The only interpretation I can make of that is Happypal saying that he is concerned by Gracey's comment on the test wiki, disapproves strongly, but spoke up for him on Wikia and is giving him a chance to participate there anyway (and hopes Gracey won't blow that chance). It appears to me to be a straight forward, honest, and sensible comment - not a sign of a conspiracy.

Another is Mathmagician's comments about allowing other videos. That again seems straightforward, honest, and sensible. There may be disagreement over the importance of exclusive promotion agreements with video promoters, but to characterize that as "wanting to promote terrariaonline" and "pushing to the point that I feel like he has ulterior motives" is a gross distortion. (As a sidenote, Wikia's position on this more closely resembles Mathmagician's - while we appreciate backlinks, we have no objection to using a video on Wikia when the YouTube uploader links to Curse or any other resource they prefer. The important thing is that readers of this wiki get the best, most entertaining, and most useful content possible.)

Gracey's comment on the test wiki was obviously totally out of line. This is something that will be looked at by staff separately. On the other hand, I don't consider it vandalism for the founder of a wiki to remove a test page on a test wiki. Again, this was an exaggerated interpretation of the event.

Given these exaggerations or misinterpretations, I've moved from neutral to disbelieving of HeroGaming's other claims.

Another area I want to address is the polls. HeroGaming, you have repeatedly accused the others of recruiting votes from off-wiki, despite this clearly being something that you did yourself. While there is likely cross-over between your YouTube following and wiki readers, and the polls have some validity because of that, there is also a fair comment that your recruiting gave an unfair distortion of the results. I do believe (of course) that readers are a part of this community, and should be heard. But editors are also a key group, and are the group responsible for the day to day running, organization, and maintenance of this wiki. The comments I've read on this wiki and elsewhere from contributors are generally more informed, and more two-sided (in that you have both supporters and detractors) and so are more informative overall than the poll results.

So, where now?

As I said, Gracey's comment will be dealt with separately. However, I'm not comfortable replacing his admin rights at this time. If he chooses to return to Wikia in the future (he will not be able to return in the next week), then any renewal of admin rights will need to be with the agreement of the editing community of this wiki.

Given the problems mentioned above, I'm also not comfortable with HeroGaming having admin rights on this wiki at this time. I was initially going to just remove bureaucrat rights, but the latest change to the main page, and comments on Mathmagician's talk page have persuaded me that he is not currently able to deal with the issues here and needs (at the least) some time without those rights. HeroGaming, I realize this will be something you are very unhappy with, and I'm willing to talk more once things calm down.... but this is how it needs to be for now.

I have seen no reason for Mathmagician's rights to be removed, and will reinstate him as admin. I've been impressed with his calm and reasonableness throughout this difficult situation, and hope he will continue to play a role as a community leader here. I will be available to work with Mathmagician and others on this wiki to help everyone though what is likely to be a complicated time.

Areas that still need work are: the video policy. What is the best way for this community to choose the best video content to display here? Future admins. Who are the best people to be admins and how should they be selected? The future role of bureaucrats. Who should be this wiki's bureaucrats, and what should that actually mean? And, of course, deciding on these issues. Who should be involved in those discussions and how?

But for the rest of this week, I ask for a pause. Let's get back to editing the wiki. Then each of these issues will need to be talked out, and the future of this wiki decided. But let's try to focus on areas other than this dispute and give some time for things to settle.

Thanks all. -- sannse WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 02:14, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Thank You

Sannse, thank you for your intervention in this difficult affair. I'm specifically appreciative of your compliments regarding my character. I hope that we can work things out in the future and that Hero will choose to remain a part of our community. Despite my strong disapproval of his conduct, Hero is undoubtedly an integral part of our wiki. I also hope that things with Gracey can be worked out and that he will be able to come back here as well. Things will be very difficult for a while. In the meantime, we'll return to editing. Once the waves have hopefully calmed down a bit, we'll look to you for guidance going forward. Once again, thank you for the vast amount of time and effort you've so graciously donated towards aiding our wiki,
Mathmagician ( talk blog ) 03:40, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

My personal opinion on this matter

First off, I personally don't like to get into arguments in general, though I am personally a heavy proponent of "freedom of speech", and am strongly opposed to censorship (for the most part at least). I don't particularly care about maintaining status quos or getting involved in some petty rivalries or such, though from personal experience, I find that the fewer freedoms are available, the less a site tends to grow. Also, and no offense to Hero, while I do find Hero's YouTube content as being pretty helpful in general, sometimes, I find that other people's videos are even more helpful, particularly when it comes to videos that cover the more less-known or niche things in Terraria, such as strategies on beating such bosses as The Destroyer for example.

That being said, I believe that, despite all the help that Hero has done in the past, other people should be allowed to post videos that they feel are helpful for certain pages. As a compromise, I'd like to propose that video posting be limited to registered users so that fewer griefers can post vulgar content and such. Besides, if the videos that were posted are found to be not that helpful, or (in the case of videos that were replaced) are found to be less helpful than the previous videos, then we could always revert them back to a previous edit, just like with any other edit.

--Shadow Wolf TJC 23:41, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

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